When Your Client Inspires You to Go Harder | Damon Hudson (Personal Injury Lawyer)

In just one year, Damon Hudson launched his personal injury firm in New Mexico and grew from 20 cases to over 70, a testament not just to results, but to his connection with his clients.

There was one case however that stood out, a trip-and-fall case, where the client in question believed so deeply in her case, she had filed a pro se claim herself at state court.

The case then got moved to federal court, she met with the defense, and was met with a very low ball offer. 

At this point, she knew that she needed good representation. She turned to Damon, and shared the memorable line, "Damon, I'm worried they're gonna make a fool of me."

This client was trying so hard, and believed so deeply in her case, it inspired Damon and his firm to go even further to push for a fair, high value settlement.

Through multiple rounds of mediation, and multiple temptations to walk away, they persevered with their case until the result they were looking for finally came.

Damon shares this inspiring story as part of our conversation on building strong, genuine relationships with your clients, and preserving the integrity of those relationships in the new age of AI.

The thing I said to her after was, "Remember where you were when they offered you $750, and remember now when they're offering a lot more than that." 

So I was grateful for the trust, that means the world, but you have to earn it. 
- Damon Hudson

In this episode, we discuss:

◼️ How to navigate a case that starts as pro se.
◼️ Why mediation is one of the best ways to get to know your client.
◼️ Why walking away from a mediation can be a good strategic move.
◼️ The experience of building a PA firm from the ground up.
◼️ Why confidence and curiosity are key traits for successful attorneys.
◼️ The competitive advantage of a firm with genuine, human relationships over AI chat bots and virtual agents. 

Chapters

00:00 Taking a Chance on a Pro Se Client
09:03 Navigating Mediation: Strategies and Insights
14:46 Building Trust and Relationships with Clients
18:13 The Human Side of Practicing Law
21:04 Balancing Law Practice Growth with Client Care
37:41 Ethical Use of AI in Legal Practice
43:37 Maintaining Authentic Client Relationships in the Age of AI

Courtroom Stories & Tactics | RVA Trial Lawyers
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Based out of Richmond, Virginia, Courtroom Stories & Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers exists for lawyers who try cases to juries on behalf of people. Through our podcast, we hope to learn from them, support them, connect them, inspire them, and preserve their work for future trial lawyers.

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Thank you!

Sharif Gray and Nael Abouzaki

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'll push back on your thing about not mediating a lot. I think a mediation is one of the best times to get to know your client in a way that is so much harder in so many other ways. Like I think a lot of people recommend going to their house, and that's great. I think you should. But the mediation is great because there's dead air. It's just the two of you in a room waiting an hour in between offers from the defense. And so, like one of those things I really love about a mediation is sometimes you just get to know somebody better and it makes the personal injury case just more personal.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This is Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA trial lawyers, posted by Sharif Gray and Niall Abuzaki.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Alright, we're back. And today we've got Damon Hudson from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Damon, as you know, Santa Fe and New Mexico has a special place in my heart. I clerked for a federal judge in Albuquerque, New Mexico a few years ago now. I also actually, before I started working for that judge, I spent a handful of months actually working for a judge in the Federal District Courthouse in Santa Fe. And so for our listeners, Damon has no reason ever to complain living in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Amazing weather, amazing food, really, really, really good food. In fact, that's probably the thing I miss most about New Mexico. And then also a lot of great travelers. Damon, remind me, but I think you and I first met in person for the first time at Travelers University a few years ago, and we've stayed in touch since then. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yeah, uh, I think it's two years ago now, and we connected first on LinkedIn and we met there and just kind of got to chatting. And then so it's been kind of crazy, what, two years, yeah, about two years ago that we met. So great to see all your successes.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Well, thank you. Thank you. Um as everyone knows, I'm we're just making it up as we go. So it's uh uh make it till you make it. I'm convinced, Damon, that once we get to, I don't know, 67 years old, we just eventually just accept that we're never gonna figure it out and we give up. So, but anyways, before I start going down that rabbit hole, take a minute, introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So uh we'll come back to that, never gonna figure it out. So, Damon Hudson, I'm originally from Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I kind of stumbled into PI after a year doing medical malpractice defense. I hated it and needed to get out and ended up in plaintiff's work and had never considered it. Went through a couple firms and learned a lot, but at a certain point realized that I needed to go out and do my own thing and and and have my own firm, something I never imagined. And so I've been or is it I'm a couple weeks away from a year in business, which statistically speaking, I hear is a big achievement because most businesses fail within the first year, so uh I'm feeling pretty excited. But I do personal injury, car accidents, slip and falls, truck accidents, dog bites, all of the variety here out in New Mexico. A majority of my cases are in Albuquerque, but I'm happy to take cases and try and expand more in Santa Fe. And and I think this year the goal really is just to help more people. You kind of see other what other people are doing, and and the thing I like about what we get to do is at the end of the day, I get to help people solve problems. I get to use like my problem-solving brain, but more importantly, I get to help people and and find a solution that that I know a lot of times it would be hard to get without me. So I'm uh I'm very thankful to get to do what I get to do and then to get to blab to you about it today.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Now, absolutely. Well, let's get into it then, talking about helping people. I want to get into uh a case that you had not too long ago where a lady just she just couldn't find an attorney to help her. And then ultimately she found you and you gave her a shot and were able to get a resolve for her. Tell us about that case.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

So the case was a a friend had been referred to this case by a friend. We'd gotten breakfast and he'd been doing his firm for a bit, and this woman had a decent claim. She had been at a store and they had like a pipe sticking out of the ground, and she fell on it and couldn't get anybody to represent her. I mean, I think slip and falls, I think people are generally pretty hesitant on because you're gonna have to file in most situations, and it seems like a lot of time people say, Well, prove it. And so she got a pretty serious injury, and so she decided, well, she filed it herself. And so by the time she'd contacted me, the statute of limitations had run, but two days before she'd filed it in state court, which I was like, I know in some situations a pro se client, someone doing that can be a concern, right? There's this situation where somebody files like a 200-page complaint and and asks for a billion dollars, but the woman put down a number that I thought was reasonable. She frankly had a one page and just said this was wrong and kind of just put forward her complaint. Then the case gets removed to federal court and she went and met with the other side. And I was like, wow, this like I thought that was ballsy. And so she doesn't call me until after that meeting. She like apparently went to the meeting, she left, she said, if we can't get this done today, then I'll go get somebody to help me. And so she worked and couldn't find somebody. The friend couldn't help her. She had been waiting to hear back from folks. It's like one of those things, you know, you get one of those calls, and it's like a weird thing about doing this work that somebody calls and something about it just feels right. Like I know I can do something for the person, but you also get the like personal connection. I think it's the personal injury side of things. And so she calls, we get her signed up, and I remember the thing that stuck with me is like one of her early calls, the company had offered for $750, like right before the statute, like, good luck. What are those uh as a courtesy or whatever? And so she doesn't take it. But when she called me, she said, and the thing that stuck with me, she goes, Damon, I'm worried they're gonna make a fool of me. And like that was an early thing in my head. I'm like, there's not a chance. We're gonna show them that you're like, first off, I think they're a little nervous about you because you filed a pro se. Like, I don't think somebody would realize that that's that's ballsy and of itself. For me, that's like the bravest thing I've seen a client do, and that most people wait on us. And so to go out and do that.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

It's funny, I can actually relate. We had a we have a client now who set for trial. Uh, he was also pro se. He filed his case, and he even like went and did a motion dismiss, motions practice, all types of stuff. And now we're representing him because I mean they just their insurance company wouldn't take him seriously. But I agree with you on a number of things. One, whenever you hear pro se, I think our first reaction is oops, I don't know if we want to touch this, right? For a number of reasons. But then two, like if I mean it is ballsy and it's something to admire if someone's really like they really believe in what happened to them was wrong, and they're willing to go if no lawyer is willing to help them and actually pursue that case on their own. So let's get in a little bit more of the story then. So you take on this case, she's already had that initial offer of the 750 bucks, which clearly she rejects. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So, first off, I mean, I get like in any case like this, I want to see if there's video. So I call up the other side and say, I mean, we're gonna send discovery. Will you show me the video? And one of the early things that I think a a benefit to her of like, again, it's like her filing and it being right before the statue actually seemed to cause some benefits. So they had been coordinating with her for a long time. I have this correspondence, I later get this correspondence where the adjuster says, I watch the video. I mean, they effectively kind of poo-poo the statement or something to the effect of her injuries can't be that bad. And I I don't see that until later, but I asked to sit down with the attorney and say, Can we watch the video? And so we sit down and we're sitting there watching it. And so I knew she fell at a shopping corral, like those those metal things. So we're looking at the time, and I can know about the time it happened, and I go, So where is it? And the other attorney's like, um Well, um, and he realizes in real time that they don't have the video footage. He says, This is all the video footage we have. And so at that point we were in federal court, so I'm amending the next day to add claims for spoliation, because they like in New Mexico, it can be an independent tort. And so we're adding claims for spoliation. We've I mean she had I think she had put punitives in and we we had some little fight on it. But I think the hard thing that I kind of struggle with in this is that like to take them seriously. And so in in my mind, there's like a level of bravery or like in some contexts, you just kind of feel, and this woman, I just I knew by filing it herself, and like like your client probably too, like something about it is is that they were not willing to accept like any plaintiff has to be brave, but like there was like a dog in nature to her like not accepting what happened to her, and like that was the thing for me that was inspirational. Like, I need to even go harder because like this client is inspiring to me on how hard she's trying. And so we we add the those claims. I mean, they asked for an early mediation, which is always like let's see what happens. And I think that's a goal to settle cheap, or they told me like we'll give you an early offer, and they gave me an early offer of like 1500, which is like, oh, thank you so much for validating this serious injury that led to like a replacement of an area, not like a limb, but a replacement and it required surgery and created long-term issues. So, sure, I'll take a mediation chance, we'll talk about it. And I I think the thing that's always interesting is I feel like people feel more pressure at a mediation. Clients do at a mediation than a deposition, which is always in my mind is should be the exact opposite. Like, we don't have to settle today, or is it a deposition like you're under oath? So we they want to do a mediation before deposition. And we have some information and and some other stuff came out later, right? Like every case isn't perfect. But we go to the mediation and we anter back and forth for a while, and the judge, like at one point we get to a number, and the judge says, ma'am, you need to settle this case at this number. You will not get any more money than this. Which I thought was a pretty broad statement. I thought that was a pr a big jump to and so in my mind, well, it's a mediation it's early. Uh if that's the case, then let's walk away and see if we can shake the trees a little bit and see if we can get a little bit more. Like the I think the hard part is at the same point, as much as and I know you have a real trial first position.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, we actually rarely mediate. We've been burned so many times, uh, in rare exception, will we even agree to mediate for the same reasons you mentioned about the pressure?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I told the client, I I advise a lot of times I say, we'll go to this, we're not gonna settle. Like even if we get to a number you want, we're not gonna settle. And I and I think again, there were there are wrinkles to everything and different reasons to do things and different motivations for I think for some clients as brave as bringing a lawsuit is a trial and being judged by your peers is like not by the judge, being judged by is a pretty scary thing, and there are reasons that that might be a good or a bad depending on the circumstances. But I said, okay, the plan was as I told her, let's walk. We're not gonna go to this and I expected we'd walk away. No, I thought we'd get to a better sometimes it's always hard in a mediation when you get to a number that makes it hard to walk away, or a number that like, okay, well, it pays your bills, puts a certain amount in your pocket, it like it never is gonna justify it, but it gets as close to to it as a number is. And it's like when one attorney's always like, Well, what would your client do if we offered this amount? It's like, well, why don't you make it hard for me to make that decision and offer that amount if you're gonna ask that kind of thing. So we got that number that I didn't think was enough, and the judge told my client that, which I was like, wow, that seemed pretty darn out of line. And we walked. And I remember her, like, there was a level of anxiety, like a just an insane level of anxiety in that time, and and it builds that pressure. And at the same point, if we wouldn't have been in trial for another year after that. The thing about it though, and it's always like I think it's an easy secret that the defense knows, is that sometimes walking away shows you're willing to like take further steps, right? We had other arrows in our quiver, we had other things we could do, and so we walked.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

I imagine the spoliation issue is a big deal, right? Because the video is gone, and in some ways that can be incredibly helpful.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yes, I mean I think you get an inference, I think that like that right in like in the context you would get a negative inference of like losing it. And I mean, I think the hard part that sometimes spoliation is I think spoliation sounds scarier to a defendant client than it might to a lawyer, because I think at least in New Mexico and in this case, there's like the difference between negligent spoliation and intentional. And so, like, sure, I think if we had a smoking gun that somebody said I deleted this to like screw that person over, then great. Like, that's a damage to the multiplier, but this it was probably just some dipstick who thought, well, this person's never gonna do anything, and the statute expired and they they hadn't been served in time, and they let it go. Is my assumption. So that's that's uh yes and no. Like I think that it's a good thing. It's always one of those things you think about it too, is like, do I throw a hundred claims against the wall or do I throw five really good ones? And so yes and no. It depends on the case, and like it's hard, even if it were intentional with any big store chain or anything like that, it's really hard to prove, even if there were like three people in a back room cackling to themselves, like cheersing whiskey and like deleting this video. How are you gonna prove that?

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, I agree. I mean, that said, right, like I have seen it's a leverage point. For example, like it's one thing to say it was a trip and fall, it's another thing to say, oh yeah, they had the video, but for some reason we no longer have it now, right? And so you can't, jury who's been asked to ultimately solve this problem and come to a just result, the one party has deprived you from the information that would have helped you to do that, right? Whether you get the instruction or not, I think there's from a persuasion standpoint, it can be helpful. And it's certainly I imagine when talking about resolution, right? This is something that had to come up, at least on the in behind closed doors for the defense.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

And it stinks. It does like even right. I mean, sure, we talk about the like legal side of it, but a jury's not going to give I don't know if a jury cares that much about intentional versus negligent, where I say, hey, they had video, they admitted to having video, and whose benefit is it to not have the video? It like it's pretty clear to I think I think people normally would be like, hey, we watched a video and you don't have it anymore. Why would you delete it?

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Exactly. Right. And I think that kind of cloud can be very favorable if you use crackle.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Which is like one of those things about like somebody filing pro se. Like it's honestly totally possible, like in this context, that this company auto-deletes videos after three years that are preserved. This video would have been saved had I been initiated early on, right? Like it's one of those things of that like if a different attorney filed the same case a year before, what does that change about the context? And I always wonder like are you always ask yourself, are you doing a good job for this client in a way that no one else could do better? And that's like one of those things, like, yeah, I I think here I did that. But it's also you wonder, does somebody do a great job for this person a year in advance? And because this claim doesn't exist because they didn't mess up, does that change the kind of context? And it's always like a thought exercise of like hindsight looking back, could I have done better and what circumstances benefited this person? And so this was definitely one of those in this case. Her deciding to do it herself and waiting until like after treatment and whatnot benefited her.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yeah. No, that's wild. Well, so I know the case ultimately resolves, but I don't want to spoil the story. So tell us, you guys were other than the spoiler of the thing. There we go, right? I mean, it resolved in some way. Well, it could be resolved in a good way, it could resolve in a bad way, right? You never know. Everything comes to some sort of resolution. That's me trying to save myself.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Well, let me let me kind of do an aside then to get there. So, like I had a client recently mentioned, and I think about this example all the time. They talked about how, and this client is older, and they reference this old cartoon, and I can't frankly remember the cartoon, but this character has a a black cloud hanging over them. And this person is well enough versed in in litigation, and they know a lot of lawyers, and they talked about how people in litigation have a black cloud hanging over them, and it belongs to one person. Like lawyers can come and go, lawyers change out on cases, their family members change out, but this black cloud hangs over that person. And so, like in my mind, right, I always think about what I can do to communicate with them as well as possible for that black cloud. And so, in my mind, right, like this person, I told them this, I think the mediation was on a Friday, I told them, like, this is gonna be sitting in your head, and you need to do whatever you can do to not let this chew at you because there's nothing that's gonna happen now. Like, my assumption was is nothing would happen. I asked just the depositions that afternoon or the first order, I set the auto reply to go out on Monday at 8 a.m. Like I was ready to take next steps. And so, like the benefit of I think circumstances of the case, of the injury of what happened, the spoliation, all of that, what happens is by middle of that next week, I get a call from the other attorney doubling the offer. And it's still not fully there. But I think again, it's like one of those numbers you start to go, it makes it harder to say no, right? Like in some situations where a client doesn't want to go forward, or if they do or don't, the worst case scenario is not a number that makes it hard for them to say. Like if they offer $5,000, it is super easy to say, screw yourselves, we're gonna keep going. Sometimes the defense can make it really easy for your client to be on board with next steps, and so they do that. I talk to a client, I say, uh, we're still not there. And so this woman walked out and waited a week, and the amount we got tripled. And so, like, it's bravery, it's like one of those things I'm like, okay, the trust for me of like a judge telling you you need to settle this case. And of course the judge is wrong, but it must be really hard because you're like I always think too, like somebody's navigating this process and they're going through this process, and they'll hopefully never need a PI attorney again, but they're navigating this process, and I've got to do everything to build the trust early on to show them, hey, like, and and one of the things I remember telling this client, and let me kind of bring it full circle, is I remember telling them that we got to this number, and I think they were still hesitant, they were still like, well, should I go to trial? They're right, thinking about those things. Again, other wrinkles came in, and I I think the thing I said was, remember where you were when they offered you $750, and remember now when they're offering a lot more than that, is this what a fool looks like? And so for me, I think we got to a number that I struggle to say the word justified, but I think put this person as close as money can to fixing an injury in the context of it. I think a number that would have been hard to get to beat at trial. And then also in their hands now as opposed to two years down the road after appeals and and what have you, if not more time. So I was grateful for the trust. That means the world and you have to earn that. But also for them, even when they trust you, hey, let's walk away and like a mediation feels like we have to settle today. Plenty of time walking away is just as good for a client because they know they know what cards the other side is playing. They know they're gonna offer zero dollars and and flip you the bird. Okay, then we'll keep walking. But it was one of those things that was like gratifying in the sense of this person came to me brave, this person came to me worried that they were gonna get screwed. And so the thing for me that's kind of really special is and I'd like I never encourage a client to give me a gift, but at the end of the case, you knew I had a young daughter and ended up giving us I gave her her check, we met and chatted, and we still chat periodically, and the client brought a a dog, a stuffed animal. So now one of my daughter's favorite stuffed animals is this one that this I mean, the client and the daughter will never be connected, but it was like a really sweet gesture, and like for me, seeing my daughter really likes this stuffed animal fills me with pride in the sense of like where else would she have gotten this had we not had this? So it was like one of those things that like again that human side of what we do just pulls in so heavily you have this connection to your family in a way, and you talk to this person about your life. I mean in the mediation. I think a mediation So here's here's I'll push back on your thing about not mediating a lot. I think a mediation is one of the best times to get to know your client in a way that is so much harder in so many other ways. Like I think a lot of people recommend going to their house, and that's great, I think you should. But the mediation is great because there's dead air. Like if I go to your house and I chat with you, I learn a ton. I learn about how you function in the world, how you walk. But I love a mediation at a point in the case because people are trying to fill the air. Some of the time the people say things they shouldn't, people will word vomit, and so it's just the two of you in a room waiting an hour in between offers from the defense. And so, like in this case, like again, you build the relationship over time. But one of those things I really love about a mediation is sometimes you just get to know somebody better and it makes the personal injury case just more personal.

unknown 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

That's the cool thing about what we do, our work, right? We're representing people, representing a human being, and we're making, we're hoping at least we're trying to make a difference for that person. And you said it very well, right? We can't go back in time and make as if this never happened, but we can try and get the next best thing, which is compensation that recognizes or or at least attempts to recognize what was taken from that injury, how it impacted their health, their quality of life. And I I can relate also in the sense of like with criminal defense work. I mean, I loved when I did criminal defense work in the army, just loved it. And it was largely because of those stories of getting invited to the retirement ceremony that the guy wouldn't have retired absent our representation of him, getting the handshake, the hug afterwards, right? I mean, that's the stuff that really, really matters. And it's the stuff that you can't replace with money, and it's the stuff that you just don't forget. I feel lucky every day that we get to do this type of work for whatever reason. People still talk about the ambulance chasers and the billboards and all that stuff. And I'm like, keep doing it because I'm loving it. So it's uh because I mean, if they don't want to come do this type of work, then fine, there's more opportunity for us to help more people and to have a great time doing it. Well, that's an awesome case, especially, I mean, within your first year on your own, to be able to see value in a case that probably every other lawyer she spoke with didn't see the value. To take a pro se complaint that's removed to federal court and to have a serious offer ultimately made and accepted is awesome. That's awesome work. Before we got on this call, you were telling me how your business is just growing and growing, and you're gonna be welcoming another team member here on Monday. So you're you're doing it all, man. It's really exciting to see. And I'm still very much jealous of the soapillas and the the red and green chili and all that stuff, the Pueblos Rancheros and all that stuff you guys have out there.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

I'll have a breakfast burrito for you this weekend. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 21:25

I well that would do me a ton of good, right? Uh no, I in fact, I'm actually looking for an excuse to come back to New Mexico for a training or something. So if you know, if you hear of anything, let me know. New Mexico, I I I admittedly, I did not have the highest expectations when we were coming, because a big reason why I wanted to go to New Mexico to Clark was for all the criminal law issues. So there's a lot of crime, unfortunately. And that happens to be because of the, and correct me if I'm wrong, but because of the border state, there is a lot of drug trafficking, and also with the numerous. As Indian reservations, at least in the federal courts, they get original jurisdiction over felony offenses on Indian territory. And so, I mean, I was very busy doing criminal work, and that was still very much in my days of I'm a criminal lawyer. And so our expectations of New Mexico weren't terribly high, but man, we loved it. It is an awesome, awesome place. Great people, weather, and of course, I'm sure I'll mention the Sopopeas and the Chile another seven times before no one that's podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

I think the thing I struggle with is like the breaking bad mentality of like, sure, like there are challenges, and like is it perfect? No. But I it's always interesting when I meet a client and like they remind me of my grandma because they like are this similar way and there's this very new Mexican nature about wanting to give their best but still being kind. It would be hard to say that like when I go to Albuquerque, areas are worse, right? Like fentanyl has done terrible things to the state, but it's also one of the most welcoming places in the sense of I think a lot of people, a lot of people that aren't from here are pretty comfortable being here and being adopted as somebody who is. It's a comfortable place that they can find their own way, and it's still in some respects the wild, wild west, too. But yeah, I think that there's uh definitely those issues. I'll be at the same point Sharif, I have maybe one or two criminal defense cases in my experience. Uh I've been mostly civil and I plan to keep that way in the long term. But yeah, I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Criminal defense is fun, man. I mean, it's like the movies in some cases, right? But uh PI is great too. Well, I got a question for you. As you're building the business, right, and wanting to provide that personal, that one-on-one attention so you can get those results like you had in that case we talked about earlier, but at the same time thinking, man, well, I mean, I need to build a business. Now we need to start talking about KPIs, caseloads, marketing efforts, all that. How do you balance that, right? Because you've got on one end, you're like, I just want to make sure I'm taking care of the client, that they have my cell number, right? That they can reach out to me and I'm available to them. Yet on the other side, I've got to support my family, I've got to support the people who are working with me and grow a business. And that means to some degree trying to get some volume, right? How does that how has that been? And how have you managed to, I guess, do both in some respects? And I recognize there's there's always challenges.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

As a business owner running a law firm, there's two perspectives. I think it's that we have too many cases or we don't have enough cases, and the firm is going to fail really soon. I don't think there's an amount where like, wow, that is the exact right amount of cases. We don't need any more. I don't think that exists. That's the thing I like for sure have learned in my first year. How do I balance it? Man, I I don't know. I try a lot of different things. Some marketing efforts have been better than others, and the benefit of starting off is that I think I started at 20 cases, and then I ended the year in the 70s. I mean, some of those have settled, but in my head, it's a proof point for me of like, okay, can you get cases? Well, clearly I did in the first year. Now it's the second year, but then now it's like, okay, I need to add staff. Like to some degree I can't be everywhere. And so it's giving them the leeway to communicate with clients. I think the most important thing for me in any regard is that clients either feel communicated with, or if they contact us, like the the thing that would kill me is a Google review that said, like, eh, bad Google review, whatever, but that Damon and his staff didn't communicate and wouldn't answer my questions. Like, that's the last thing I want to be known as is somebody who doesn't like I think I can sometimes over-personalize the case, and so the last thing I would want is somebody to feel like I didn't if I didn't care, I would rather I don't take the case. And so if somebody felt that way and that they couldn't get their questions answered, like that would kill me. And so the way I balance it, Sharif, is that like some nights uh my kid goes to bed and I work for a couple more hours. Some mornings I have to work a little bit more. I'm adding another team member, like it is it's been kind of exciting to see just like a nugget of idea from years ago blossom into the thing that's supporting my family. Like I would have never dreamed of where I am, so it's like trying to soak it up. And I think at the at the same point, like some days are harder, some days are busier. But if I can just keep helping more people, and if we can find ways to help people navigate these situations and stand up for them in a way that people don't recognize when they call us the ambulance chasers, then I'm doing like good in the world. I think I'm doing something that I feel is right and that like I can hey your case isn't gonna I can't give you your your check for other week because I gotta resolve your liens, but I'm gonna get some more money. I'm fighting for you and I'm happy to do this work. And like uh as I told somebody recently, it's like not new year, new me, it's uh new year, same me. I'm still the same dude who's gonna be arguing with insurance companies. I'm same dude. I like the confrontation we get to have, and so like I at the same point the the balance comes in that I get to care for my family, I get to do all those things, and sometimes I have to maybe get up at four in the morning on a Saturday and get two hours of work in before the kid gets up. There's some balance to it, but I I like what I do, I I get to help people, and so I think it makes it a little easier. Maybe some nights if I get one less hour of sleep to go okay, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah. Yeah, I mean the whole cliche about like what is it? If you love what you do, you don't work a day in your life. I mean, I think there's actually there's real truth to that, as cliche and corny as it sounds. I mean, I feel similar. I love work, which is, I mean, sounds crazy, right? But it's really cool to have work that you enjoy and you love and you get to see the fruits of your labor. And I hope everyone is able to find that, be it in the law or or in whatever profession, because I'm a big believer, and I mean I've had my struggles. I still do, right? I'm five's six, I'll never be six foot. No, I'm joking. But uh um, but in all reality though, like I've had my ups and downs, and I'm sure I will continue to have my ups and downs like everyone else. But if ultimately I feel like if you double down on what you enjoy doing and really work at it to the point where you can provide value to other people, things tend to work itself out. I mean, my big defining moment sounds a little too dramatic, but leaving the big law and going to be a prosecutor, I mean, the pay cut was massive and the career pivot was significant, one that you just don't see that often, right? And I learned through that process, and I'm grateful for having learned it, but like just figure out what you want to do and then double down on it, get as good as you can on it, and be amazed at the opportunities that will open their doors. And then another thing which I'd love to get your thoughts on is becoming a part of this community. And when I say that, I mean there's multiple different communities. I mean, you've got your community in Santa Fe, we have ours in Richmond, there's a legal community, and then there's also something that I've really enjoyed about our work is just the national kind of personal injury trial lawyer community. And like you and I have both been to trial lawyers university, right? And to be a part of that and to see people and work with people who truly believe that a rising tide lifts all boats is something that's really, really cool. And I understand you've also done that on the business side as well. Is that right? Gone to like business conferences. Yeah, with Yeah, great legal marketing, great legal marketing, yeah. Ben Glass and all that. So I imagine like having that camaraderie has been very impactful. It certainly has for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

I've found I think the thing I like. Sure, you go to conferences and you hope that somebody has a case to refer your way. Like, sure, that's like a thing you think of. I want to learn, but one of my favorite things after a good conference is if I have a couple of text chains with new friends who I can ask stupid business questions about, who I can send some memes with. I went to a conference recently and there are these guys who we just connected. We went out to eat every night, we went to a dinner where we all just cackle with laughter the entire time. It's like you make these quick friendships because you know you kind of see what these other folks are doing. I mean, it in the same sense, like you and I connecting with people on LinkedIn, even you just have some of this connection of somebody else to build enough relationship they like can ask a couple questions. I'm only on this podcast because we've met in person, and I think only we only met in person or talked because I had seen you on LinkedIn before. And so I go for those connections. Makes the world a little smaller, man. But I like I'm happy to have more friends. There's not a lot of bad to having more friends. I don't think even if you're out on the East Coast. We're not too bad. I spent a winter in northern New York, so it wasn't the best winter of my life. So I would say in that area it was hard for me, but otherwise, yeah. But I think you you have those connections, man. Like you have told me that later we can chat about the conferences you're going to this year. Otherwise, you're gonna have to start charging people for Dan and Ben and Brian for ads on this podcast if we're gonna keep talking about their competition.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

We had our own. We had our own.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

I know I had already bought the ticket. I already bought the ticket to Nair. We're doing it again.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

So hopefully we're not conflicting. It's gonna be October uh 22 and 23. So it was it was awesome. Like we had a great, a great, great turnout, awesome speakers. I thought it was a lot of value added. Granted, I'm certainly biased. But yeah, no, I mean I'm I'm I love it. I mean, I'll tell you kind of where I plan to go, but I'm definitely gonna do the Depositions or Trial by Satch Oliver. I was supposed to go last year, but I couldn't, so deferred to this year. I don't know when it's gonna be. I think he's doing a handful of them. We're gonna go to the Keith Mitnick Art of Out Smarting or something like that in Florida in May. I'm gonna go back to the Jerry Spence Ranch in August. I'll do Trial Lords University in Huntington Beach in June, and I'm sure there's a couple others. Um, I'm I have a problem with going to these things. I love them. I love them. So they're always a good time, and you get to learn and meet meet other people and feel like you're part of that community that we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

It can make a small business not feel as like small or like you have that connection, right? Like, I mean, sometimes it feels less isolating to know that someone else has like a similar problem, or to hey, like how do they solve like especially like when you're running a business, it's like sometimes I'm batting my head against the wall about how this check processing works or whatever this issue is. If you have somebody who's done it before, it's like, oh, let me text Sharif and he's like, Oh, we just use this vendor. It's like, oh, it solves me 10 hours bashing my head against the wall when I can sometimes a connection is just a way to solve a problem.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Absolutely. And I mean I've benefited from that reaching out many, many, many times, and I'm sure many times to come. Let's talk a little bit about AI. Uh how are you guys implementing AI at your firm?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

So I think that like you talk about like balancing it, sometimes it's that. It's finding ideas. Like I drive once a week to Albuquerque, I get an hour each way. So I turn on ChatGPT and kind of like use it as a way to unscramble thoughts on a case. Like there'll be a case that like you know you're in the shower and you think, like, what's an angle there? And so like I'll kind of wrap about that. And that's just one of the simplest ones of like just me talking to ChatGPT about like my ideas without of course getting anything privileged, but just like, okay, what's an angle in this case? It's plenty of times just give me ideas of a claim I can add, a defendant you can add. I've done some work with like helping prepare initial demand letters, like the first draft sometimes. I mean, I think motions to compel, good faith letters using Claude or some of those little things allows me to save time to focus on the substance of a case, like preparing for a deposition, taking a deposition, doing things that help move a case along that are sometimes not just like the ticky-tacky discovery BS that defense really seems to enjoy. And so like I try and cut out some of the if I'm doing something similar, like a good faith letter, I'm doing that over and over again. Well, AI can help me draft a similar one based on my complaints about a discovery set. And so I try and use that for little stuff like that. If I can use little bits to improve how client data is saved. I have it now and sets it up, it saves to my phone as soon as I enter a new client. So that like our phone system has a name automatically entered, just cutting off little steps like that. And so sometimes having it as a resource of ways to better help your folks and make them more efficient, and sure. Like I'm not trying to be the robot lawyer myself, and it can't do everything, but it helps me to help more people. Like it really just does in so many contexts and does some of the things that I think you talk about a 60 to 70 year old, you get to that age that I think a lot of people aren't willing to take on to kind of help some cases move along and remove some friction.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

And it allows you and your people to do the things that really matter, like develop those connections with the client. It just allows for more of that. I mean, we're using AI fairly heavily. Uh, we don't view it as a replacement for people, right? We view it as kind of like what you're saying, as a tool that just helps us move faster, more comprehensively, and frankly, just sometimes even just more effectively. And like our business, unlike the defense side, like we don't build the hours. So, I mean, for us, right? It's the faster we can get something done, the better we can get it done, the better it is for the client, the better it is for us, and we're able to continue to press the case forward. Because contrary to popular belief, the defense doesn't just say, Oh, here's a great offer, right? Like, I mean, but in all it's funny, but like there's some people who bel who think, and I understand where this comes from, like, oh, you file suit, and then the defense is gonna get scared and they're gonna be like, here's an easy one to sell the world. This case will sell right away. It doesn't happen, like at all. No. In fact, I think it has the opposite of effect. And correct me if your experience proves differently, but I find that when I file a lawsuit, any chance at resolving the case in the near future is gone. Because now they're gonna a defense lawyer is gonna be hired, they've got to do their billables, they've got to do the depositions, issue the subpoenas, write up the reports to justify any sort of potential resolution. And so I we have to move the ball forward, which is why it's so incredibly important in our opinion to have that trial mindset, because the only kind of point of leverage is what a jury will do, is what's going to happen in a courtroom. And the closer you can get to that, the better you are to get actual justice for the client, to actually get numbers that really mean something. Because absent that, like you're just playing in their world. And when I say their world, I mean the insurance world.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

And until the jury is AI itself, and we can click right at the start and know exactly what the outcome will be. But like I at the counterpoint, the thing I really am unwilling to do that I've been like sold on a lot is like uh you probably get all these emails like, Mr. If you need my VA AI agent to answer all your phone calls so you don't miss a single client in my head. I'm like, well, if my clients always talk, like I have a personal injury furnace, and if the first person they talk to isn't a person, immediately violating what I am, and so it's like the things I'm not trying to replace are that connection, that personal nature. Like I text clients very frequently, like on and we have a system that unless it's a wrote message saying this is the thing we're sending you, please sign. I'm not trying to automate all that. Like, that seems like the point where we're starting to lose what we do. And at the same point, too, like on some of these softwares, the thing that kills me is that where people are adding these things to be more efficient. This company was telling me, it's like, oh, you can get this AI agent. And you know what the best thing about it is? And I was like, What? And this guy goes, You can charge it back to the client. I'm like, Well, wait, time out. So instead of me hiring staff to save money, I use AI to save money. But now that I use the AI to save money, I can then charge that to the client. I think that's an ethical issue in of itself, but it starts to become like AI has its own problems in a hundred other areas. But like the last two things I want to do are get a client money faster, resolve it, save costs on my end, and then use that efficiency and charge them for it, and at the same point, like also use AI to immediately disconnect myself from the personal side of things. Sure, if you want to run a big like there are ways, I guess if you have a big enough shop that maybe that's the only thing you want to do, and it can be efficiencies, but I think it loses the thing that makes this work worthwhile.

unknown 36:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah, I again we're we're using AI, we're using it very heavily. But I agree with you. I mean, AI intake is AI picking up the phone. I mean, maybe for after hours stuff, but like, I mean, if you don't want to talk to your clients, then why do you want to do this work, right? Like, like clients, you know?

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Like, I mean You're gonna see them at their worst. Like what? Like, if you're in that mediation and you only talk to them, you're not gonna know anything about them. Sometimes, like, even like in the simplest thing, like if somebody tells you their kid's name, and if you're like having to let me review the AI phone call to know your kid's name, you're not in it for the right reasons. I think play people can be successful in what we do if they're in it for the wrong reasons. I just don't know if that's a long-term sustainable outcome.

unknown 37:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

And I wonder if that is gonna be a competitive advantage for you as you build your firm. Actually, I don't wonder. I expect it will be. I hope. Right? I'm and but in all seriousness, right? Like, I don't think people, and I could be completely off base here, but I don't think people develop the same affinity anymore with brands. And I think people crave authenticity, they want the human connection, especially in a world where everything is on a smartphone or one click away, right? I mean, at the end of the day, you want to be able to talk to your lawyer and you want to be able to trust that your lawyer has your best interest in mind and actually cares. I mean, that's the secret ingredient to all of this. I know I recognize I'm preaching to the choir here, but if you care, no, I'm I'm serious. Like if you just genuinely care, that can make up for so much. And when you step into a courtroom, that connection with your client, the jury sees it. It's just so incredibly important. And that's one of the main lessons I took away from the Jerry Spence stuff, is that we just have to be willing to kind of shed all the garbage and allow ourselves to be seen. And if we are in it for the right reasons and we do genuinely care, then that's contagious. And will we win everything? No, of course not. But in the event that there's a close call and it comes down to credibility determination, I'd bet that the person who truly cares is ultimately gonna get pushed over the edge there in the right direction.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, that's the hope, man. I mean, I like you say that at the same point if it's not a competitive advantage, I don't want to go like if my job, right, and AI takes all of our jobs, I don't want to lose the human side of this. Like I did the defense side, I didn't get the human side. And so coming to plaintiff's work, I was like, I went to law school to help people, and I found a job that I get to do that in. I get to have these like incredibly human moments that I just don't think exist on the defense side, and in doing some of that work in civil defense. And so, yeah, AI is great, I think, but like again, it's my hope is the advantage, and like if not, even if it's not the case, I continue to operate this way that like let me do the human side of things that I can continue to do. That sometimes the the mistake is gonna be more powerful than if I was perfect and polished and primed. So that allows me to be the best for the people, right? For me to be a zealous advocate is is being myself, and that's giving a damn.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Being real, right? Yeah. And I'll be quiet after this. I recognize I'm the one supposed to be interviewing you, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:58

But uh we're good enough friends that it's just more of a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

No, this is good. This is good. Well, I mean, this is something I've I've shared a lot lately. Like, I talk about how like criminal defense lawyers at the end of the day, when someone says, How do you represent those people, right? I put in in quotes, air quotes. At a minimum, they can say, Well, uh, I mean, everyone deserves a defense, and at the end of the day, I'm standing up for that old piece of paper called the Constitution, right? I think the corollary for us with the work that we do, and it took me a while, I think, to appreciate it, but I've come to truly believe it, is yes, do we represent the person, the victim, the person who's hurt it, no fault of their own? We're trying to get them back on their feet or get them as close to whole as we can. But in doing so, I mean, we represent the values that I think the values of freedom, right? The freedom to choose to live one's own life the way they want, without pain. I mean, what is the value of human life? What is the value of being able to go play with your kid? And and when that's taken away from somebody. So, in many respects, I think we get to walk into courtrooms and say, we're here to advocate on the value of human life. And I think that's really, really cool. And I mean, I'm certainly biased when I say this, but when we take that approach, I mean the whole like, what are the medical bills, what are the lost wages, and having so much focus on that, I think is so misguided. Certainly, if it's helpful, if the special, if the economic damages are helpful to the client, we're gonna use it. But I go into court, if I have those and I'm claiming those, I'll look at the jury and I'll say, we don't need you to tell us what the medical bills are. We have calculators, right? Like we need you to tell us what the value of the important things, the person who can't walk the same way because this driver was texting on their phone and hit him, right? Or the value of this person who's lost a loved one and the the value of that relationship, right? Like I don't care what the funeral expenses are, and no nor should you. And so I think this work has deep meaning. And if we are to pursue this work that way, then the human component needs to always be first and foremost.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yeah, and I mean you like you right, you become a bean counter on the other end if you're engaging too much in that. Like, sure, I think there's when you reach policy limit and there's not anything else, like this case I resolved recently. We the numbers just weren't there, and I was able to get some other information about like what they lost, their inability to to get a job in the future, their the loss of sleep. We were able to get to these policy limits. It wasn't a huge case, but at the same point, it's sometimes you have to be able to tell the story of the person and kind of demonstrate sometimes you're talking to an adjuster, and like even sometimes people will be like, Oh, it's just a bump knee or whatever. It's like, no, it's a much bigger thing than I think you're realizing. And the only way you're gonna know that though is asking, right? Like, if you're not engaging with that client and you're not talking to them about, okay, I would try and get people like get on your Apple notes and start writing notes, tell me what's going on. I've had people who lost teeth and they talk about their smile will never be the same, right? Is that a $2,000 smile than ever same? No, it means something more than just like this X. Like it be it means a lot more in painting that picture, or even if you resolve the case, only comes from knowing the person and and trying to be there for them.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

We're gonna have to get you out to the Jerry Spence stuff, man. I think you'd love it. I think you'd love it. Not to add another course on your plate, but uh, or at a minimum at least come to our thing in October.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

If you can convince my wife when we go to TLU this year, that'll be the thing. That's a lot of weeks. I've heard great things, but yeah, it's three weeks. It's way too long.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

But it ultimately it's worth it. Well, let me end with this then. If you could go back to when you began your career as an attorney and give yourself some advice, knowing everything that you know now, what would you tell yourself?

SPEAKER_00 43:37

To be more confident in myself for where I'm at. I think I had a lot of doubt. Like you come in out of law school and you expect to be guns blazon, and you're sitting there. I was writing deposition reports. Didn't feel like I was being a lawyer. I think I could have been more patient. I mean, I'm glad I spent a lot of time. They paid for CLEs, so I took CLEs. I tried to learn, I tried to consume. I don't know. I feel like I started my firm at a good time, but at the same point, COVID was I I could have taken in more during that. So I think I would have taken advantage of more opportunities. Not that I miss out on all of them. I would have taken advantage of more of the opportunities in front of me. At the same point, any good lawyer I think has to be curious. And so you have to want to learn about your case, your client, the law, whatever that may be. So you can just ask more questions. And so I think I wish that I would have maybe taken on a couple more opportunities. I would have maybe tried some different work. Even in law school, I wish I would have tried taken some different classes and so been open to some other experiences because I'm not really going anywhere else. And so those always benefit you. But at the same point, man, I think that like to some degree the journey I've been on has been one I wouldn't have expected. But like it feels like a pretty damn straight line, it wasn't at times with where I am now. I needed some of the uh the failure of going to a law firm and it not working out. And me, I was a bad defense attorney sharif. I wasn't good, I didn't like it, I was bored. There are so many parts about it that like I don't think I would have realized. And I remember I was in my interview for my first plaintiff's job, and like, why plaintiffs work? And I remember thinking I was like, I never considered it. Never considered it, not a time, it just had never come up. And so I was like, it must be something different, and I luck. And so I I think that it at the same point I would have been more confident in myself, but I'm pretty damn thankful. And but I still got plenty of distance to go to to where I want to be, man. Like when you said uh to be 60 or 70, and and I guess at that point have convinced yourself you figured out I don't think anybody figures it out. But uh at that point I hope to have convinced myself I figured it out.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Or you convince yourself that you'll never figure it out and just be okay with it, right? That's what I think the answer is at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. But um, well, Damon, this has been a lot of fun, man. I hope to see you in person here again soon. Are you going to TLU, Huntington? That's a plan. I highly encourage you to bring the kids. I highly encourage it. My daughter had it blessed. So wow. My kids are wild, so I don't know if that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

There were plenty of other kids there. There were uh there were people who brought their kids. There's the beaches are right by. So no, I know.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

I've been there like twice. So uh it's awesome. But I mean, my kids are an extra special wild. Two young boys, man.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

You have boys, I have a girl, so I can't about the same, but yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Thank you again for for joining the podcast. Thanks for having me, Sharif.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Thanks for listening to Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA trial lawyers, hosted by Sheriff Gray and Niall Abuzaki. Please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or any major podcast platform. Together, we're building a tribe of trial lawyers to remind the world what human life is truly worth. One verdict at a time.