Making a Mid-Life Career Transition to Law | Portia Koptish (Medical Malpractice Trial Lawyer)

You don't have to fit the norm of what people expect a law student to be.

Portia Koptish had a long career in nursing before deciding, after the turmoil of Covid-19, to transition to a completely new career in law. She went back to school for the first time in 25 years, but with decades of life experience behind her.

She is here today to share this unique perspective on law education and the legal profession, an inspiring story that reminds us that, for all intents and purposes, it's never too late to pursue a career in law. You can be a lawyer when you're seventy-five, and on your second or third "career." Imagine the breadth of skills and experience that someone so well-rounded brings to the table.

This speaks to the underlying message of Portia's story: transitioning careers can lead to fulfilling opportunities. And taking time off before law school can provide valuable life experiences. Portia, Sharif and special co-host Nathan Hittle each share stories of lessons learned about careers and life, from pursuing interests, to surprising twists and turns, a few regrets along the way, yet gaining valuable understanding on how to make the best decisions for you, in the moment.

"Go do something else, have fun, get life experiences in all kinds of ways. You will be so much further ahead when it comes time to start law school." - Portia Koptish

In this episode, we discuss:

◼️ Why taking time off before law school can be beneficial.
◼️ How law school can be less challenging than parenting!
◼️ That personal experiences can enhance understanding and effectiveness as a lawyer.
◼️ How law school teaches you to think critically and understand multiple perspectives.
◼️ Why the process of learning is often more valuable than the final product.
◼️ That finding joy in the legal profession can lead to a fulfilling career.

Chapters

00:00 The Long Journey to Law School
09:55 Experiences During COVID as a Nurse
19:48 Navigating Law School and Career Aspirations
27:12 The Value of Taking Time Off Before Law School
33:39 The Evolution of Legal Thinking
39:32 Effective Study Strategies for Law Students
45:16 Building Relationships and Networking in Law School
49:01 Balancing Life and Law School

Courtroom Stories & Tactics | RVA Trial Lawyers
Available on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and at RVATrialLawyers.com 

Based out of Richmond, Virginia, Courtroom Stories & Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers exists for lawyers who try cases to juries on behalf of people. Through our podcast, we hope to learn from them, support them, connect them, inspire them, and preserve their work for future trial lawyers.

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Thank you!

Sharif Gray and Nael Abouzaki

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:33

Even if you know that you want to be an attorney and this is a lifelong goal, it's not going to be detrimental to you to still take time off and to still go work and do something else. Because all of that is just going to help make law school a little easier. Now you have a depth of knowledge that you just you can't get except to grow up and spend that time just living your life.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

This is Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers, hosted by Sharif Gray and Nial Abuzaki.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

All right, before we get into the episode, I want to take a minute and introduce you guys to a friend and colleague, Sally Tierney. Sally works as a professional investigator based in Northern Virginia, but handles cases all over. I've had the privilege of working a case with her not too long ago. Sally, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about what you guys do?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Thank you, Sharif. So Clear Path Forward is the firm, and we do investigations for attorneys for criminal, personal injury, civil by doing an extremely thorough investigation on every single case. And we add value for the attorney. Thanks, Sally. And for people who want to reach you, how can they get a hold of you? They can call us at Clear Path Forward 703-350-2073. That's 703-350-2073.

SPEAKER_05 2:02

All right, we're back. And today we have a guest host, Nathan Hittle. Welcome. Thank you. We've known each other for a little bit. Just a little while. Just a little while. No. Nathan is a colleague at our firm and has so kindly agreed to take the place of Judge Nial Abuzaki today.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

That's right. Swapped Nathan for Nile.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

I like it. I like it. And we also have the privilege of having our guest today, Portia Coptish. So changed names not too terribly long ago, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

No, no, April got married.

SPEAKER_05 2:32

April got married. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, congratulations. I'm sorry to all our listeners who were hoping they still had a shot. But I guess no longer.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

No longer.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

No longer.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Off the market.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

So Portia and I met through no surprise to our listeners, this thing called LinkedIn. And it was a few years ago now.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, before law school.

SPEAKER_05 2:52

Before law school, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

I just started, I believe.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

I think that's right. And I remember seeing your background, and I was like, oh my gosh, like you would be perfect for this work because your background is in healthcare. A lot of time spent, especially in nursing. And either I reached out to you or you reached out to me. I forgot how that all worked. But we met for coffee, if I remember correctly, it was at Stella's at Libby Grove. And then I was really excited about kind of your interest in the type of work that we do. And I think I tried to connect you with a few people and I did, and we've stayed in touch. And now what, two, three years go by. You're graduating from law school here at the University of Richmond and going off and starting as a trial lawyer on the wrong side in uh in a couple months, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Well, I don't know about the wrong side, A side. A side.

SPEAKER_05 3:43

No, she's gonna go represent uh medical professionals who have she's gonna defend them in medical malpractice suits. And I joke about the wrong side, but at the end of the day, you're dealing with people who are also going through the worst time of their life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

And we also joke that, you know, I say I work for the good guys, so both ways.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

No, no, no. Yeah, it goes both ways. But if you listen to this podcast, we we kind of know which side you're on. So um the right side. So, anyways, before we get into it, why don't you take a minute or so and just introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Okay. So Portia Coptish, my new last name. I graduated from nursing school from UVA in 2006 and started working as a nurse at Martha Jefferson Hospital. Prior to that, actually, I was a paramedic, but being a paid paramedic also required you to be cross-trained in fire. And uh I had no interest in that. I was healthcare all the way. So I decided to transition to nursing. And I also have a daughter, and she was young at the time. So the 24-hour shifts for paramedics also just didn't make a lot of sense. So I continued to volunteer in that capacity, went to nursing school, taught CPR, first aid, that kind of thing. And then yeah, I just I continued to work as a nurse for a while, and then I moved to Canada and I didn't enjoy being a nurse in Canada, so I quit and I opened a gym to uh try to keep people out of the hospital. And then COVID happened. I went back to nursing and then law school. So here I am.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Here you are. So definitely not so funny enough, so uh Nathan and I went to UVA for law school. Nathan, two years in advance of me, I believe. You're 2012, correct? Yes. I was 2014, and so you were 2006.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Yes, yeah, from nursing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

Awesome. Very cool. So we've got something in common. Let's take you back then to COVID. What was it about COVID that gave you the inspiration, or maybe not the inspiration, but the motivation to say, you know what? I know I've been thinking about the law for a while, never actually pulled the trigger on it, but here I am. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Well, a few things. So there I was in a different place in my life. My daughter was grown up and had moved out and was married. And so I, you know, and I was single at the time, so I could basically do whatever I wanted, live wherever I wanted, you know, go to back to school if I chose. And I had originally thought about going to nurse practitioner school because that I thought would give me more autonomy. But really, after being a nurse during COVID, I wasn't enjoying being a nurse anymore. Healthcare had really changed since I left and I moved to Canada in 2009. So I wasn't really sure what it was, whether there was some change that happened in healthcare or whether it was just specifically because of COVID that everything went so terribly sideways. But it was really difficult to work in nursing homes and see patients alone, confined to their rooms, not able to have visits from family. And then, you know, also just the treatment of nurses too. I remember I was working in a field hospital. It was right when the vaccine rolled out. And we were, we were hesitant. We didn't really know, you know, we'd been working in COVID the entire time, putting ourselves at risk. And when the vaccine rolled out, and then suddenly now, you know, we've been risking our lives to help people, and then all of a sudden, you're getting fired because you don't want to get the vaccine. And I thought always it's we've been able to choose what we want to do with our bodies. We should have the right to say, no, I'm not really comfortable with this, or I want more information. Or to me, what I learned in nursing school is that it's the patient's choice. It's their body. They can decide whether they want to have an intervention or not. And it's our job as healthcare providers to provide all of the options, the risks and benefits of all of the options. And then ultimately the patient decides what they want to do. And I just felt like that was completely taken away. And I had so many patients say, like just as an example, a diabetic woman who was on dialysis. She'd gone to the dialysis clinic and she said one of the medications they were giving her, it made her feel poorly. And so she wanted to use a different medication that she'd had at another dialysis clinic. But this particular clinic said, no, this is the only one that we can use. So if you don't want to use the medication, then you can't be our patient, basically. And I just thought, well, that's that's not really acceptable. That's not how we should be treating people and taking care of people. You should be able to dictate that to some extent. So anyway, that's how she ended up in my care because she didn't go to her dialysis and she got very ill and then she ended up in the hospital. So yeah, things like that.

SPEAKER_05 8:33

What was it like being in a nurse during COVID? And I recognize it's somewhat of a broad and loaded question, but if if you could go back in time and just help us understand like being in a hospital setting, right? Like COVID's going on, but you don't know what it is, or or people are afraid, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:54

What is that like?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Well, I was never in a proper hospital. Okay. So mainly I worked in nursing homes.

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

So I would be on a floor with, you know, 25 to 30 patients by myself as the only nurse. I had assistants, medical assistants, or nursing assistants, but it was just me and 25 people all had COVID. All of them had COVID. And then I worked in a field hospital, but that was separate from the main hospital. So we were just the overflow, if you will. So people would come to the field hospital because it was dedicated to COVID patients. So I was never really in the hospital setting, but I would just say that it was a very lonely experience and it was just really sad. You know, I had patients in the nursing home who didn't speak English, and there were no translators. There was no way for me to communicate with them at all. And, you know, I can go home at the end of the day. They're stuck there weeks and weeks, months and months, can't talk to family. It was very difficult to arrange. I mean, everyone says, oh, well, you know, you could just FaceTime, you could do this, you can do that. Well, that that requires some technology first, and then, you know, maybe as some assistance to set it up because remember, these are all elderly people. They didn't grow up using FaceTime and all of these things that we think are so easy, right? So, um, yeah, it was a very lonely and sad time. I mean that it's over.

SPEAKER_05 10:19

I I remember at the time I was working for a federal judge in New Mexico, and I remember just waiting in line at the groceries. It was Trader Joe's. And the feelings of the uncertainty, right? Like I don't know how bad this thing is. I think my wife was expecting too, so that was scary. That was scary. But I think that's one level of scary. Just the idea, at least when I try and put myself in your shoes back then, of being in a place where you've got so many people who are looking at you as the authority, right? They're looking at you as what do we do, what do we don't do, and there's just so much information that just isn't known.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Right.

SPEAKER_05 11:00

And then the helplessness that comes along with being in a facility like that and not having the same access to technology for a number of reasons that others do. It had to be crazy. And uh and what I'm hearing from you, and it's sound and correct me if I'm wrong, is it sounds like that it was that experience that finally was like, you know what? I'm gonna do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:22

And there here comes law school.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it should be better. We can do better, I think, even even in times like that, you know.

SPEAKER_05 11:32

I have a few doctor friends, and what I've heard from them is that the administrative wings of hospitals, the insurance parts of medicine has really well, I mean, I certainly it's unfair to like use broad strokes and say bad, but it has changed medicine and how medicine is practiced. And it's not fun. It's why a lot of people don't want to be doctors anymore. It's why your ER, actually the two people who I'm close with are both ER doctors, and they tell me that ER doctors are looking for other things to do. The burnout's real.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Yeah. Right. Oh, I met an American Airlines pilot who left medicine to be a pilot.

SPEAKER_05 12:13

Yeah, I mean, it's it's real. And I've even noticed, kind of just in my own life, that there are, I mean, my physical therapists, I'm very good at getting hurt. It's a skill. I kickball.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

That's what happens when you're an athlete.

SPEAKER_05 12:27

Well, it's not even well, it's funny because I do CrossFit and like, oh, of course you get hurt. You do crossfall. No, I don't get hurt at CrossFit. I get hurt playing kickball. Oh I get hurt like rounding.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Is your boys?

SPEAKER_05 12:36

No. Adult competitive kickball, right? I take it very seriously, and I hope my team is listening to this. So, same team in Richmond since 2021. So we have a good time. It's a lot of fun. But no, I mean, it I have a weird, I mean, I've I wrestled in high school, college, and four knee surgeries, one or two, one shoulder surgery. I mean, I've I've been through it. But anyways, my physical therapist doesn't take insurance anymore.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

I mean, I've seen doctors who don't take insurance anymore because they just they just don't want those constraints.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Right.

SPEAKER_05 13:10

And in some respects, it almost makes me think of like the education system. The education system might even be getting there too, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:16

The public school system at times I've heard has gotten so overburdensome with regulation and administration that that teachers don't want to do it anymore. It's like, why? I came here to help people. I came here to teach, to have the autonomy and the flexibility to make a difference. But when I spend 70% of my days doing administrative nonsense, I'm not in it for the long term. So, anyways, I recognize I just went down this massive rabbit hole. But it's cool to see kind of how, or at least to hear how you solve what you believe to be a problem. And instead of saying, you know what, it is what it is, I'm just gonna press on, let's make a change and let's do something that is not traditional, right? You are not 22 right out of college.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

No, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:02

You're 22 now, correct?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 14:04

You've gone back forever.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Aging backwards. Understood.

SPEAKER_05 14:07

Yeah, my wife's birthday the other day, and she didn't actually go up in years, which I thought was interesting. But um, that's a new thing, I think.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

So I need to figure out what she's eating and get some of that because it's not working the same way for me. Well years keep going up.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

You know, Nathan, I have learned that age is a mindset. So there are days It's also a diet. That's fair. There are days where I think I'm like 72, 73 years old, and then there are days where I'm just a young lost child trying to find my way. And that's probably more so. But but no, uh it's cool that you ultimately said, you know what, let's do something about this. Because at the end of the day, being a lawyer is you're an advocate. People have rights, right? Especially the right to choose like what's gonna happen to my body. Uh it's in the medical setting. And to make that decision and to go to law school, I'll go ahead and and uh I guess spoiler alert, like you've got an awesome job lined up here in a couple months.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, I sure do.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

Again, doing on the wrong side, but representing healthcare providers.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

So really coming full circle in any respects. And now instead of just being that nurse, you're gonna be that nurse's advocate.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Right. Yeah. And the doctors too. I mean, I met many doctors that were not able to do what they wanted to do during COVID. Some of them got around it because, as you said, they, you know, they were private doctors to people who could afford it. And I did a lot of in-home care for people who had COVID and they just wanted to do something different that wasn't permitted in a hospital setting for whatever reason. I don't know why that would be, but yeah, everybody was hamstrung a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

So with the work that we do, I mean, Nathan and I, I mean, we're dealing with I mean, our work is tangential to the healthcare industry. We don't have the same level of regulation, but we have a client right now who I think tomorrow he's scheduled for an MRI, and it certainly hasn't been easy to get that, but it's important to him and it's important to his case. And so uh we are very, very well aware of the struggles sometimes that can result in just trying to get care. And there's also I'll get off this stick in a little bit, because what I really want to get to is I want people to understand and appreciate like what it was like going into law school for you, going through law school. So, because a lot of our listeners are young listeners, and we have people who want to go to law school, and if they can learn from you kind of what that was like and what are some things that maybe they should consider doing or thinking about when making their decision and going through law school, I really want to get to that. Um, but before I do, I can't stop but continue to hammer the healthcare system. I mean, I have heard the phrase more than once that it is not a healthcare system, it is a sick care system. And I believe there is actually a lot of truth unfortunately, there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah, it is not about nutrition, exercise, doing the fundamental things to ultimately encourage wellness and prevent sickness. It has become a reactive type of system.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

100%.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

And so I have learned now, unfortunately, that it's well, I guess fortunately, but relying on your one to two visits a year with your primary care physician and doing the standard blood panel is just woefully inadequate. And you have to take your health into your own hands.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Eating while sleeping, exercising, doing all the things.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

And do whatever they say on YouTube, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Well, I don't watch YouTube, so I'm not sure what they're saying. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_05 18:35

That's what I said too. Anyways, um, well, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 18:39

Talk about law school. What was it like for you just preparing to even go to law school? Because I we get this, I imagine Nathan, you probably get this question a lot too. It's like, all right, well, I'm going to law school in the fall. What do I do? What do I need to do to prepare? What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_02 18:55

I felt that I needed to do something to prepare. Now I went to the admitted students' day and they encouraged us to just enjoy our summer and uh try not to get too into the weeds about preparing for for law school. That would come soon enough. I didn't listen to that advice. I did an online program just to kind of review what I might be learning in my one-all classes, which to some extent was pretty useful. And if only just to be aware of some of the terminology and and have a sort of very bird's eye view of what my next year was going to look like. I like to be prepared and know what I'm getting myself into. And so I don't know that I would have been able just to relax and enjoy my summer and just table that for August, right?

SPEAKER_05 19:44

You found the right profession. Be able to relax wanting certain.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah, relaxing is not a not a strong suit for me.

SPEAKER_05 19:53

Start our own 12-step program.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah. And then the other thing that I tried to do was read more, not necessarily legal things, but just get accustomed to reading large volumes of material when one's sitting, because that is a lot of what law school is. And I'd gotten out of the habit. I was a very big reader for a long time and grew up without a television. So it really was the only thing I could do to entertain myself when I was growing up, other than, you know, play outside and read books is basically all I did. So yeah, that that's pretty much all I did to prepare.

SPEAKER_05 20:29

Did it help?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I think it did. Yeah. Yeah. And at least in terms of I was less nervous going into it. I mean, it had been 15 years, 20 years since I'd been in school. So I was a little anxious about going back again. I mean, I've always loved school, but it had been a minute.

SPEAKER_05 20:48

So Nathan, what was it like for you?

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Well, I went directly from college to law school. I don't know about you, I did too. Okay. So I likewise was nervous and felt underprepared. And I think most people probably do because it's a new experience and you don't quite know what it's going to mean. At least most people don't, before they go. I think in my class at UVA, about half of the students went straight through and about half had some work experience where they had done something else and then gone back to graduate school. I felt like, at least in the first year especially, that those students had an advantage, it seemed to me. Because for me, coming straight from undergraduate school to the University of Virginia for law school was a big leap in terms of expectations and study habits and what was going to be required of me. Whereas the people who had worked real jobs out in the real world with real stakes and a salary and supporting themselves and their families and had real responsibilities, it seemed like to me, for those students, going back to law school, though it may have had its challenges, was more of a not a vacation, but it seemed easy compared to working a nine to five. And I don't know if you felt like once you got there, your prior experience was an advantage or not over your classmates who went straight through, but it seemed like to me that it was for those who did have the work experience.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

I think it's a huge advantage. I mean, I've I've heard so many times, oh, law school's so hard, it's so hard. It's not nearly as hard as parenting. And it's not uh well, the stakes aren't as high, right? Because there are some wonderful moments of parenting, but it is, it's taxing, it's 24-7, and you know, especially when you've got little ones and they get sick and you got a little one too. Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard, it's hard work and it's it's relentless. You can't take a break from that, but you can take a break from law school, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Just put your books down, and maybe you're not so well prepared for the following day, but you know, you can't put your kids away, you know. So I would say Well, you can.

SPEAKER_05 22:59

I have to be able to get surprised. I have uh are you familiar with the case that I had not long ago? No. A little bit, yeah. You know, I think I might behave and not at all. It was a criminal case and it involved children and involved allegations of uh of a cage. So no. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

I'm sorry I brought that up. No, no, no. It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

But to be I mean And even with work too, you know. Like work as a nurse, I was working twelve hour shifts. I've felt that was harder, way harder than than law school. I think law school is it's a lot of work for. For sure. It's a lot of reading and it can't, I wouldn't call it a vacation necessarily, but it's not it's not what I would describe as hard.

SPEAKER_05 23:38

You know? It's not what everyone says it is. No. Right? Because what do they I mean, what do people think of? They think of what's that movie is like Paper Chase? Paper Chase. Right. Actually, I don't I mean I'll come clean. I don't think I've ever actually seen it.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

I watched it right before I went to law school and I was so excited.

SPEAKER_05 23:53

My version of Paper Chase was legally blonde. That was legally blonde's a good movie. Legally blonde too is all right too. So um I went straight through. I thought I struggled to some extent, at least at first, with the adjustment, especially coming from VMI going to UVA, where it seemed like half in my class like went to Princeton, right? Like it was like, holy crap, like, how am I even gonna keep up here? Right. Do I even belong here? And I don't think until I got my grades, which were I'm sure I think were just okay, I even wondered like if I'd made a mistake, right? And so, but I agree with both of you that my classmates who had another career or even just spent a few years in the working world before law school, just such better students. Yeah, 100%. They were more intentional. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 24:37

We have a number of paralegals that work here at the firm with us who have or may have aspirations to go to law school and have talked to me about it. I'm sure they've talked to Sharif about it. And the thing I tell them is that by working here, you're gonna have such a leg up over people who have no legal experience or no work experience because they're eager and ambitious and they want to do well. They ask the same question that Sharif asked you about, you know, what should I do to prepare? And the thing I tell them is just keep doing what you're doing. Like that's the best preparation is just do well now in what you're doing. And then when you get there, you're gonna be head and shoulders uh in front.

SPEAKER_05 25:15

There's so much I wish I knew before starting law school. Now that's sad, I mean like I'm grateful for everything looking back, and this is and I mean this genuinely, like I've had my ups and downs, like all of us, and I'm sure it'll continue. And I'm grateful for it, right? Because I don't think I'd be here in this chair doing what I'm doing if if not for both the good and I guess the perceived bad at the time. But Nathan and I both, and I'm guessing you as well, Portia, we it's not like we came from a long lineage of lawyers.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

No, right?

SPEAKER_05 25:45

And so one of my classmates who a great guy, hard worker, his godfather was Scalia. Oh, okay. Right? So, like, I mean, like again, great guy, hard worker, but the resources available just in terms of the knowledge of like people are like, Oh, you got to do this thing called a clerkship. Like, what the hell's a clerkship? I don't even know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

We talked about that at the dinner table. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

I'm not sure I knew what a tort was until the final exam. Yeah, but you know what the irony about all of this is?

SPEAKER_05 26:11

If you play law school, right, you get to win this special prize. It's called going to big law. And then you go to big law and you realize that's not a cool.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

So what you're saying is we really won out by not being at the top of the class.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

Correct. We didn't know it. Well, I still was dumb enough and I still did it, but whatever, at some point, and I didn't last very long. But there really can be an advantage towards taking time. And I don't want some people say take time off. I mean, you're still working, right? Just go being a normal person. I'm sure people gave me that advice back then, and I know I didn't listen to it because I didn't, and I'm sure I've given that advice to other people, and if I were to go back and talk to myself, I'd say the same thing, knowing how stubborn I was then and remain to be today, I probably still won't listen to myself. But I tell people often now unless it's like some like this is your life goal, and you're never gonna be happy doing anything else, if you've got any interest in doing something else, and I get these questions a lot in the context of the military, because I went to VMI and a lot of cadets there are like, oh, I want to go be an army jack or navy jack or whatever, right? But they've also got this like inkling, oh, I want to kind of do the cool guy stuff too. Like I want to be the infantry officer, I want to ride in a tank and all that. And it's like, and I tell them, just go do that. Because I mean, you do that for three, four years, and then you go to law school, right? And they're like, Well, am I gonna be behind? I'm like, no, you're not gonna be behind. In fact, you're gonna be further ahead because when you get on the other side of law school and people are looking to hire you and they have to decide between this person went to this law school, went to undergrad law school, da da da, and uh 15 other people do the same thing. You were a freaking officer in the military. I want you, right? Yes, because the skills that we develop in other parts of life can be directly applicable to what we do as lawyers, which is why, again, of course, I think you have a huge advantage going into what you're doing, because when you are representing your clients, they're gonna get one immediately that you know what they're talking about because you've been there, right? And there's also just a technical skill set. I remember you and I were talking at one point, you had mentioned during one of your summer internships about how when medical records come in, you were able to find stuff that other people just couldn't would never see, and nothing to do with their competence, but just because they just never experienced it, they just don't know what to look for, right? So, anyway, so that's I guess all three of us are saying that don't rush into law school, right? Like you can be a lawyer when you're 75. You can't, I don't know, go guide bicycle tours in Barcelona when you're 75. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

Well, but I mean, my advice, one, if you don't know what you want to do and you want to take a year off good travel, go see the world. Because once you start working in law, you kind of have to be where you're at. Yeah. You have to you have to practice where your feet are to a certain extent most times. And secondly, if you just take a step back, right? The law, even though it's its own industry and its own profession, it touches on every other profession. It's kind of this overarching blanket over the rest of society to a certain extent. And the reason I didn't know what a tort was when I got to law school is because I'd never encountered one before. I hadn't worked in healthcare. I hadn't, you know, worked in insurance. I had right, but if you're out in the world and you have experiences, then when you show up and you start learning about the law and how it governs the field that you have experience in, it gives you something to grab onto and to make sense. And so I I I agree a hundred percent with Sharif.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yeah, yeah, me too. I would even say that even if you know that you want to be an attorney and this is a lifelong goal, it's not going to be detrimental to you to still take time off and to still go work and do something else, or even just be a paralegal for a little while and just get your feet wet and get some experience because all of that is just going to help make law school a little easier. But then also when it comes to getting a job, you have something that sets you apart from everybody else that just went K through J D. And I mean, maybe they've had some interesting experiences along the way, but they haven't had a year or two or five or 10 of some other experience that, like you said, now you have a depth of knowledge that you just you can't get except for to grow up and spend that time just living your life.

unknown 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:24

I mean, there's something it's funny at VMI, like we didn't have to do our laundry, didn't have to cook. And so I remember law school. Well, law school, me and my roommate was also a VMI guy. And we had a two-bedroom, one-bath apartment. And for the longest time, I'm talking like six, seven months, we had nothing in the living room. We didn't even know what to put in there. Because I mean, because at VMI, like you share a room with like four or five people, like it, anyways. So there's something about like just growing. I mean, I'm still growing up or trying to grow up, but there's something about like just go pretend to be an adult for a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

And uh, and I think that can really help. So, what I mean, okay, so preparing for law school helped you. I don't know what, if anything, I did preparing for law school. I'm sure I read some stuff. I remember there was a book like it was called like Getting to Maybe or something like that. Did that ring a bell?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Oh, yes, it does.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

But um but in terms of actually going through law school, what are some of the things that you wish you could go back and tell your one else self, hey, you should do this or avoid that? Like what are kind of some of the things that you'd want others to know?

SPEAKER_02 31:28

One of the things that was easier for me was to just follow my own path and you know, make my own way, make my own contacts, which they do stress that in law school networking, right? And they set up all these events for students to do. But I I did more of that on my own. I met you. I reached out to law firms that I felt that I might want to work for in advance of when we were, you know, supposed to do those things. And then I just basically disregarded all the advice that didn't apply to me. You know, I didn't want to do a clerkship. And I would talk to people, you know, at law firms where I wanted to work and I would say, how important is this? Like if this is what I want to do, then like does it matter if I'm part of a journal? Does it matter if I do this clerkship? Do these things matter? Because I don't really want to do them. I would rather spend time with my grandchildren. And so I just didn't. I felt that there was a lot of pressure in school to do all of those things, but it wasn't necessary for me and the job and the life that I wanted both during law school and in the future. So I would say to students now who are going through law school or thinking about it, really consider that because there's a lot of work to be done. And then when you add a journal, that's even more. And then you add, you know, add on, add on, add on. If you do a clerkship, then you have to find something else for your 2L summer, because that's your one L summer. So I found a job that I wanted. I did that job my one L summer, my two L summer, and now I'll be working there when I graduate.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

So I did not have to You're talking about gray broad and injury law.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Exactly. Um, but I didn't have to send out 50 applications, right? So I have, you know, these poor people are studying for all of their classes and doing all this work and writing all these papers and then simultaneously applying to 50 different positions. Probably most of them they don't even want. And I'm just thinking, what a colossal waste of time. Like if you can just fine-tune it and figure out which is the benefit of taking some time off and doing some other work or something, then you can really hone in on what you want to do and just get rid of all the superfluous stuff. And you know, for some people, the clerkship is important. It being part of a journal is important and that's part of their trajectory. But I just feel like there could be more intention behind that, which is easier for me coming at this as a second, third, fourth career. I'm I don't know even sure where I am right now.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

But it's funny you mentioned the journal thing. I remember in law school kind of the push, like, oh, it's time to get on a journal, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:06

And and I ended up getting on a journal. I think I was on the criminal law journal at UVA. But I mean, long story short, they're not worthless, but they're close to it. Yeah. Like it, I mean, I mean, I'm sorry, Lawrence. No comment. Yeah, they're close to it. I mean, what is it? It's blue booking for other professors who want to get their stuff published. That's what it is. If I see a resume on that comes through on my desk about a potential hire and it says journal, I think neither a positive thing nor do I think a negative thing. If I don't see a journal, I don't even miss it, right? Because it doesn't make, at least for the type of work that we do, it doesn't make a difference. Now, granted, law review is a different thing. That's for the smart people, the smart driven people. But law, I mean, that's in and of itself, it's a sign of accomplishment. And really, and frankly, the actual job on law review is the same, just at a higher level. But yeah, so that's that's really good to get that point of feedback about just being intentional about how you want to spend your time and energy. What was that like for you, Nathan?

SPEAKER_04 35:10

Well, I think I was a little more aimless going in than you were. I didn't know what I wanted life to look like on the other side of law school when I showed up. And luckily, more through chance than intention, I was exposed to criminal law and trial work and kind of find my way into that track, and that's what I ended up doing for the first 10 years of my career before I ended up here. And for those of you out there listening who may not know exactly what type of law you want to practice, I think it's fine to go to law school under that circumstance, but you need to know that you have to be intentional once you're there about seeking out opportunities to do different things and maybe have some ideas of things you might want to do for one thing. But to follow up on your earlier answer, Porsche, here's the thing I'm curious about. I want to ask you. I certainly know that for me, and I imagine Sharif would say the same thing, that the way that we thought about issues and problems changed when you finish law. By the time you finish law school, it has changed you as a person from before you walk through the door. And that is true for people who go straight through from college or people who have working experience. It's true for everybody that goes through that process. There's just something about it about teaching you how to think quote unquote like a lawyer. And I'm curious for you, what if anything has changed in your outlook on the world now that you're getting ready to graduate law school?

SPEAKER_05 36:46

Well, you lose all morality.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

Well, that's yeah. And like you can answer if you have anything, right?

SPEAKER_05 36:52

You still have a heart you lose your heart at graduation.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Oh no. Yeah, I'm still looking for my part of the ceremony. It's part of the ceremony.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

I do remember there was a professor at UVA that I was particularly close to at the time I was there, and I was getting ready to graduate, and I kind of asked him for some advice, and he said that he had another student who graduated the year prior who came in and was very idealistic about all these different things. And at graduation he asked him, you know, so what did you learn? And he basically said, Yeah, I don't know what I believe anymore.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

And uh meaning like I can argue either side of anything, kind of thing, and that you know, there is something to that. I think you got to be careful to like maintain your sense of right and wrong and and self when you go through the process. But but it does teach you a lot of skills for sure.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

It does. Yeah. And to follow up on that point, I think coming from it at my age, I was 50 when I started law school. I think I had a much better sense of self. And so I've become better at evaluating both sides, but I haven't changed how I feel about things and my moral compass hasn't changed. But I think what it's helped me do is better understand the other side and then figure out how to make points that might make sense to the other side of whatever the argument might be. Whereas before, I just would have been very dismissive and just said, Well, you're wrong, obviously. You know, and so now I'm able to consider it. I still think it's wrong, but I'm a little bit, I think, I hope I'm a little bit better at at least, you know, being able to have a conversation and maybe articulate some things that might be helpful for them to see my side of things.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

So it does seem to me that maybe the flip side of being able to argue any side of any issue is that at least when you're doing that, you're forced to confront the arguments of the other side. And it seems like every day that goes by, the rest of the world, like we're all just talking past one another more and more and more and more. And that's part of what I actually enjoy about the practice of law is that you know, when we make an argument, the other side has to confront our argument on the merits. And when they make an argument, we have to confront it on the merits, and then somebody decides who wins.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:10

That sense of fair play as a starting point appeals to me. Yes. Well, it's all kind of personal. The choose us as a winner.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

It's not as black and white as I was expecting the law to be. There's there's a whole lot of gray and just even intended. Right, exactly. The thing I think that I've enjoyed the most about law school and the skill that I think is most valuable is just reading more carefully and really understanding. You know, so one of my classes, we have to go through the statutes and read them out loud with all of the punctuation, and then we break it down and really analyze what does this mean? Like every single part of it. All the way to the case.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

We realize how hard it is to write something that's clear.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I've I send off an email and I think, oh, that makes perfect sense. And then the other person's, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Well, ironically, we had our affirm training yesterday on effective communication, which was fun. But I was one who did it. So whether it was effective or not, is the jury is so out on that. But ironically, a good example of that is we had a trial not long ago, and Nathan handled emotion that really at its core eventually came down to how does one interpret an apostrophe in a complaint, which is kind of crazy. But it actually is kind of statutory construction, as nerdy as that sounds, is actually kind of fun. And it's certainly and I I don't know, I tend to subscribe more to the textless type approach when it comes to viewing the law, right? And I recognize that's that's one way to look at the law. I mean, I think that's the fairest, at least from my understanding. But the law can be super, super interesting. Let's talk about something more practical in terms of like what did you find to me most effective in going about attending your classes and studying? And I'll give you a snippet of kind of at least what I came to learn the hard way. Outlines are a big thing in law school. People are like, oh, you gotta get the good outline, or you gotta come up with your own outline, or da da da, or buy that, or get it from this law review person who was a genius, and and that's the best outline. And what I ultimately learned is that the benefits of coming up with an outline is not the finished product, the benefit of the outline is the process and the time and the care in which you take to actually put it together because that's where the learning happens. A lot of professors, at least where we went to school, were perfectly fine with you being able to have access to your outline during the final exam. But I learned, and I'm sure I did this learn this the hard way, that having a great outline is only so helpful. And frankly, it doesn't really help you that much.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

No.

SPEAKER_05 41:55

The benefit of it is the work that you do to create your own. Because that's where the learning happens. So if I were to go back and talk to my one L self and tell them what to do, granted, I probably still wouldn't have listened. I would have said, hey, find a regimented way to take the course material. Well, one, I would say, first off, don't just rely on the textbook. Textbooks, they're okay. Go to YouTube. Before you give this assignment, you name your topic, go to YouTube, go online, find a video, just get a general understanding of like what is this about, right? So you have some context. Then dig into a horn book or the actual material or case material, then be prepared for class. And I would say that to myself many times. Be prepared for class. Again, I'm not sure if I would actually listen to myself. And then when you're in class, don't be on the computer, don't get distracted by your buddy. Uh, thank you, Cam, who was on ESPN for most of the class, and actually like take the notes and then after class, take your notes, take all everything you read, preparing for class and the stuff that you watch, and then put all that into your outline. And then as you go through the semester, continue to build and build, and then when you get towards the final exam, at that point, that's when you cut. That's when you go through all the material and you cut, cut, cut, cut to where you get a very concise outline that you can quickly refer to if needed. That's how what I would tell someone to take, but that was also a number of years ago now. I mean, I graduated in 2014. I'm not good at math, but what is that, 12 years ago? And uh is there some anything like that that you think you've learned that would be valuable to a law student today?

SPEAKER_02 43:45

So the last time I was in school before this, as I said, was 15, 20 years ago. So we were still using the pen and paper method. And I find that to be What is that? It's you know from the dinosaur age.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

Understood.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

Uh so I think ballpoint, not like calligraphy. Right, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

So I did exclusively my 1L, well, the first semester, 1L. I did all of my notes, paper and pen. And I did my outlines online, then I printed them all out so that I could use them during the exam. It was not helpful. So then 2L, I changed my tactics a little bit, and I still continue to do the pen and paper note take, and I still do to this day, just because I feel it helps me retain the information better. And then it also forces me to take all of those notes and type them into the computer. And I can also edit as I'm doing that. So I would take all of my notes. I try to do it daily, it doesn't always work out that way, but at least once a week, go through all of my notes and put them in the computer, and then I get rid of all that paper. And so it's already an edited version of what I took and the outline of the outline, if you will. And then as you said, I would go back and just cut out redundancies, organize it. I usually use the syllabus from the instructor as my starting point. So I'll download that as a Word document and then put my notes in underneath the topic for the day so that it is it's somewhat organized as I go along and then just continue to edit and use that to study.

SPEAKER_05 45:24

It's funny how we tend to figure it out as we come close to graduation.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

Yeah. That was certainly true for me. I mean, I think grades are like anything an approximation of what you actually learn, but they probably mattered to some degree. And for me, like every semester I think was better than the one before, just because I felt like I got better at becoming a law student and learning what the expectations were. I think what you both described is very similar to the process, maybe not the the pen to paper part, but similar to the process.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

I'm the only one in class that's doing that.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

Right. I mean, I I think I I actually did pen to paper because I found if I had a computer, I'd I'd get distracted.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Right, exactly. Well, that was another problem too, or you know, little messages pop up or whatever. And I I usually sit in the back of the class and so I can see what everybody else is doing. And there's a lot of New York Times puzzles going on and online shopping. There's a lot of not paying attention, which is totally what I would do if I, you know, had my computer.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

At the end of the day, that process is sort of learning how you learn best. Yeah. And that is something that has applied outside of law school for me that I really learned in law school. I mean, I didn't come to that through undergrad or high school or anything before that point in my life. The other thing I wish somebody had told me before going to law school that would be practical advice I would give somebody is about the exams. Because up to that point in my life, for the most part, every exam I had been given, more or less, there's a right answer and there's a wrong answer, and they're looking to see if you know the right answer. And nobody really told me that wasn't the case in law school, and that they want to like see your work, they want to see you think on the page. And you certainly got to know some material to work with, but it's more about like how you take that material and use it. And once that clicked into place, everything turned around for me. And you know, I I know I know that both of you know what I'm talking about. Maybe somebody who hasn't been to law school kind of they might kind of get it generally, but not in the same way you all do. But I think that's one of the things that when you go to law school and you come out the other side, like you get that process and what people look for.

SPEAKER_05 47:38

A couple other things just came to mind that I certainly would want to mention, or I would certainly want to know if I was getting ready to go to law school or 1-0 is uh some things that I learned the hard way. I found that group study was ineffective. I found that group study was really a cop-out to try and get away without doing the work, and really the work, the way to learn is to actually have to wrestle with it. And so my recommendation is with rare exception, do group study. I tried that a couple times and it just I never found it to be very helpful. Another thing that I would I would certainly I don't think I did a good job of it, and I strongly wish I had actually if there's anything that I wish I had done differently, it would have been this is don't be afraid to develop relationships with your teachers. Professional relationships. Um good clarification. Thanks. Uh but uh uh meaning take advantage of office hours. They want to see you, right? Yeah, they want help. That's what they're there for, right? One, you develop a better connection with your teacher, you're gonna be more invested in the material, the teacher's gonna be more invested in you when you do have those things you're not getting. I mean, it that's your opportunity to go ask them, right? And that's their job. And also, I I it's funny, I remember I had my contracts professor, and it's kind of crazy how much this stood out to me. Because I I when I at the beginning of this podcast, when we talked about law school and all that, I meant it when I said that it was intimidating being a one L at UVA law school where my classmates went to Princeton and Harvard, you name it, right? Just brilliant. And with the lack of grades, right? I mean, you don't know how you're doing until January when you get your final exams back, right? And even then it's only somewhat indicative of actually how you're doing as a law student. But I remember my contracts professor looking at me and randomly and said, keep up the good work. And that didn't I didn't get to get the comment on, I only got it once, and I still remember it. And I I think the reason why I still remember it is because it was just the context of how difficult I thought it was. And for that professor to be willing to say that meant a lot to me, and hence fast forward what 15 years, and I still remember what Professor Troy said. I remember his name, which is kind of crazy. Had I taken the time and been intentional about developing those relationships professional with the professors, I'd like to think that I would have just felt more comfortable and it would have made for a more enjoyable experience. So those are a couple things I think I would want to tell myself. And the last thing that I actually I think you'd commented on before we started this podcast is also this sense of you don't have to fit the norm of what people expect a law student to be. And what is that? We expect them to be stressed, not sleeping, working like crazy, forgetting life, forgetting family, forgetting friends. You just don't have to do that. In fact, it's actually not productive.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

No.

SPEAKER_05 50:30

Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Absolutely. Yeah, I I hear this a lot where you know, students will say, Oh, I didn't, you know, I didn't have time to exercise, or I haven't had time in months, or I haven't, you know, done X, Y, and Z. And there's, you know, certainly a lot of pizza being eaten at the law school. That's the free lunch program, I guess. But, you know, as a nurse and also, you know, a fitness instructor for a long time and just generally, you know, my whole life I've been interested in health and wellness. I don't sacrifice that. So I did make sure that I, you know, kept up with my runs and would go to the gym and I take my ballet class that I love. And I made sure to eat really well and skip the free pizza and pack my own lunch on those days. And I feel that investing in that gives you much more stamina to get through law school sleep is another thing that's hugely important. You're not going to remember anything if you stay up until 3 a.m., 4 a.m. cramming for an exam. You're way better off to just go to bed at 10 and maybe get up a little bit earlier, review your notes, and then go take your exam. But it's so, so important to take care of yourself because if you don't have your health, you're not going to perform as well. And that's going to impact your longevity and then you know it impacts your relationships. It just it's not worth the sacrifice in my mind.

SPEAKER_05 51:52

And then you've got COVID in a nursing home.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

It all comes full circle. Portion, this has been a lot of fun. Before we let you go, if you could go back in time to when you first entered the professional world and give yourself some advice, knowing everything that you know now, what would you tell yourself?

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Well, that's a little complicated because when I first entered my job, well, when I was a nurse and I graduated from nursing school, I was I was a mom. I was a young mom. And that was very it was compatible with being a mom because I could choose my shifts, I could, you know, drop Sarah off at school and then go and work and then pick her up. You know, I was somewhat lucky, but also I negotiated that with the department where I worked. But I would say that I would tell my younger self just to enjoy those moments and don't be so gung ho on, you know, my career and getting ahead in life and just be constantly feeling like I have to keep striving and doing all these things. Like I think that it's okay to just slow down and be a mom and be a wife and you know, do those things and a career. Like I started law school when I was 50. It's always going to be there, but your kids aren't always going to be little and you're not going to get those times back. Thankfully, I didn't miss out on too much because I was a nurse and that's very compatible with being a mom. But yeah, I would just say slow down and enjoy your life, enjoy where you are right now. There's always opportunity later to go back to school and go back to work. Can I ask you one follow up question?

SPEAKER_04 53:28

I know she reflexed ends on that question, but I think this is apt particularly for you, and given everything we've talked about. So you mentioned before the podcast that you had thought about law school for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 53:40

You've raised a child.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

You've been a nurse, you've run a gym, now you've gone to law school.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

And you're about to graduate and you're going to enter this new profession. And clearly something that you're excited about and you want to do. And we wish you the best of luck. But my question is, what most excites you about your future as a lawyer?

SPEAKER_02 54:05

I absolutely love what I do now. It's something that I get lost in. I mean, I'll I'll start working on a project and look up, and it's 7 p.m. and I'm still, you know, I'm still crank, and I just find it so interesting. It's like a gigantic puzzle that needs to be solved. And I'm learning so much, and it's just a really it's a fun thing to do. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:28

Well, welcome to the profession. Thank you. We wish you the best of luck. And welcome to Gray Broughton Intro. So should we edit that part out so your your soon-to-be employer doesn't listen to that?

SPEAKER_02 54:38

I think they can take a joke.

SPEAKER_05 54:39

I think uh I think they're very lucky.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

So it's been a privilege. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Thanks for listening to Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers, hosted by Sharif Gray and Nial Abuzaki. Please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or any major podcast platform. Together, we're building a tribe of trial lawyers to remind the world what human life is truly worth. One verdict at a time.