The Calculated Risks Successful Lawyers Take | Matthew Mikula (Collections Lawyer)

The moment you realize that you don't love where you are, you're already one foot out the door to a better life.

Matthew Mikula had just gotten married, and was straight back to work at Big Law. Immediately the warning signs were there: "Is this where you want to be indefinitely? Once you start having a family? Maybe for the rest of your life?" 

Because risk becomes more challenging as life becomes more complex.

Matt joins us to talk about the decision he made to step away from that particular path, to pursue instead criminal defense law as a trial lawyer, and then an even further calculated risk into law entrepreneurship as a collections lawyer, with his own firm.

It's a mindset that we each need to come to in our own way and time, when life presents us a choice: which crossroad will we take? How do we calculate risk and make the ultimate decision?

In addition to this big-picture conversation on forging a legal career, Matt also gives us fascinating insight into the world of collections law, including why it exists, how it works, who his clients are, and who are the people the least likely to pay what they owe. You might be surprised!

" If you know what your core values are, and you keep an open mind, and you have certain things you strive for, your path will find its way." - Matt Mikula

In this episode, we discuss:

◼️ The significance of calculated risks and mindset shifts in career changes.
◼️ The importance of branding, marketing, and business fundamentals for lawyers.
◼️ The role of courage and boldness in trial work and legal advocacy.
◼️ Demystifying collections work: client accounts and recovery strategies.
◼️ The importance of humility, flexibility, and the non-linear path to success.

Chapters

0:00 Matt’s background and career start
5:19 The 2012 decision to bet on himself
9:40 Why he fell in love with criminal defense
13:31 What collections law actually is
20:17 Garnishments, judgments, and collections process
28:26 Transition from trial lawyer to business lawyer
34:25 AI, clients, and law firm operations
37:25 Advice for young lawyers
43:47 What people misunderstand about collections

Courtroom Stories & Tactics | RVA Trial Lawyers
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Based out of Richmond, Virginia, Courtroom Stories & Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers exists for lawyers who try cases to juries on behalf of people. Through our podcast, we hope to learn from them, support them, connect them, inspire them, and preserve their work for future trial lawyers.

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Thank you!

Sharif Gray and Nael Abouzaki

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:34

The people that are successful, I feel like, are good at doing calculated risk. They assess things, they make decisions based upon an assessment, and then they pull the trigger knowing that if they give it a shot, it will work out if you work hard and do all those other things.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

This is Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA trial lawyers, hosted by Sharif Gray and Niall Abuzaki.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

All right, before we get into the podcast episode, I want to take a minute or two and introduce you to a friend and colleague, Jenny Shadini. Jenny is a former prosecutor from Baltimore City, and now she works as a settlement consultant. We work with her often on helping our clients really maximize their results. Jenny, it's really great working with you and having you as a supporter of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Thank you, Sharif. Hi everyone. My name is Jenny Shadini and I work as a settlement consultant, which means I work with attorneys and their clients in various settlement planning needs, such as structured settlements, whether or not to utilize a trust, how to protect government benefits, and overall providing financial security to your clients.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

And Jenny, how can people get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

The best way to reach me would be my cell, which is 301-332-1031. Again, that's 301-332-1031.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

All right, we're back. We've got Matthew McCula. Class of 2004 VMI, correct?

SPEAKER_02 2:03

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

So Matt and I, while we're many, many decades apart at VMI, uh I appreciate the laugh. I'm dead serious. No, Jake. Um no, I'm Matt. Currently 95 years old. Only a few years older than me. But as I tell many, age is a mindset. And today I'm feeling I'm feeling like a 70-year-old. So it's good. Where are you at?

SPEAKER_02 2:24

I'm feeling, you know, I'm feeling like I'm 25, even though I'm 44. Beautiful. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

I like it. I tried to be. I like it. Excellent. So Matt and I did not meet at VMI. We met a few years ago. And now we were doing the math earlier, but I think it was five years ago. I joined the Henry Commwealth Attorney's Office. Really awesome. Just great place to work. Not just that office. Certainly I'm very biased. I made it have a lot of good friends there. Think that office does really strong work. And my neighbor, by the way, is also Shannon Taylor. No kidding. So yeah, no, three doors up the street, which is kind of wild. But, anyways, that courthouse is also just a great place to work. The judges are fantastic. The court staff's fantastic. The sheriff's deputies are fantastic. Even the def and then the defense bar is incredible. I mean, everything's just very collegial. And you were at the time were doing a number of things, but spending a lot of time doing criminal defense work, and was one of the many lawyers who was on the list, really kind of serving as Hen Reiko's public defender's office. Granted, it wasn't an office, private attorney, private practice, but taking up those cases.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

We met through there. We've stayed in touch, obviously, through the VMI stuff, and we've both kind of gone into the civil world, right? I mean, you're you've got a collections practice, still do the occasional criminal work. But you're still, I'm I'm my guess is Matt, and we'll probably get to this a little bit today, is that you still have a bit of that trial lawyer in you. Because if I remember correctly, you had a pretty significant murder case. I did. I think you have.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

And I'm I miss it to some extent because it's there's no better thrill than being able to represent somebody and their life is in your hands. It's it's certainly a roller coaster ride, but it's kind of why I got into law initially.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Yeah. I mean it's a rush, right? Well, before I keep going and going and going, why don't you take a second, introduce yourself, and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah, sure. Well, I appreciate being here today. My name is Matt McCula. I'm a native of Richmond, Virginia. Been practicing law now for 15 years. I'm a husband, a father, and a lawyer. I got two great kids, a great wife. I'm really blessed. And, you know, like Sharif said, I started my practice. Well, before I practiced, I clerked for a judge, which is the best gig in the world if you can do it as a young lawyer, if you're interested in becoming a trial lawyer or being in the courtroom. Clerking for a judge is a great start to a career. Did that for a year with Judge Gill, who's since passed in Chesterfield Circuit Court. Then I went in with Chris Spencer. It's Spencer LLP, I think is what it was called at the time. And we'll talk about the trajectory of my career, but have loved the practice of law. It's been great to me.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

I personally feel very lucky. I mean, I've had legal jobs that I didn't care for, but on the whole, I've had some jobs that I love, include the one I have now. And I I wish everyone could like be this happy. So that's good. And I know you're really enjoying it and have done very, very, very well, which is awesome. I want to, before we get, I've got a bunch of questions for you. Sure. But before we get into it, I want to take you back to 2012. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at that time, you're working, you're doing commercial litigation, you're at a bigger firm, and you make a decision. And the decision is, you know what? I've got one life to live. Let me see if I can make this work. Right? Let me let me see if I can bet on myself a little bit. Set the scene. Yeah. Where was this? When did this first hit you? Were you at your desk, at home, in a conversation? And then walk us through kind of that decision process and ultimately what you did.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, definitely. Well, it was November of 2012. And I remember it very vividly because it was the week after I got married. So I got married, Elizabeth and I got married November 17th of 2012. Glad I remember that date. And don't worry, we could have edited it. That's right. And at that time, I was working for Chris Spencer, very strong trial lawyer, very well known. There are people that love him, people that don't love them. And I learned a lot from him. So I was very appreciative of that time that I spent with him. But it was a grind. You know, it was that big law firm feel, you know, billable hours, just grinding. And what happened was I got married on a Saturday, came back on Tuesday. Now this is Thanksgiving week. So I knew I had to work Tuesday and Wednesday, and then Thanksgiving Thursday, worn out after the wedding, because you know it's a busy to-do getting married. And I get back to work on Tuesday. I think, you know, and I'm gonna be on cruise control into Thanksgiving, and life's good. So something happened, I don't even remember, but we were at work until I think 2 30 in the morning, 3 a.m. I mean, it was we had something we had to get done. And I got sick. Wednesday morning, I wake up and just felt miserable. And I was just thinking to myself, what am I doing to myself? This is just ridiculous. The next day, the next morning, I just called out and I had like a few voicemails that I responded to from home, all three of them from clients that wanted to speak with Chris, not me. And I was just, it just hit me. I just realized, you know, why would I put all my eggs in one basket and be completely reliant on somebody else for who knows how long? I want clients to call me because they need me. What do I need to do to get there? And so that was the realization I really had that weekend of Thanksgiving of 2012. We had just gotten married and you know, spoke with my wife and some people I trusted, my godfather, my father, about hey, what do I need to do to take the next step of my career? Because I could get stuck in this rut forever, especially once you have kids. It's harder to make some serious career choices. Now's the time for me to act, and can I make that decision?

SPEAKER_03 8:14

How long did it take you to make that decision?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Uh, probably about a month to two months. So not very long. And the reason it didn't take all that long was because I remember two things. One of my good friends from law school, Armin Zujurti, is gonna shout out, he is a deputy prosecutor in Albemarle County. And we were driving to you know lunch one day in law school and we were talking about why are we doing this to ourselves? We're studying for the bar exam. This is ridiculous. What are we doing? He goes, Well, you know why we're doing this. We're in law school because we're risk adverse. If we weren't risk adverse, we'd be doing something else. We'd start our own company. We would do X, Y, and Z. We went to law school because we're afraid of taking a chance. And I've always thought about that. And, you know, the few weeks after this all happened in November 2012, I said, you know, there's really a fundamental difference that I think lawyers have, and a lot of people have, and they're in two camps. One, you're just risk adverse, and then there's another camp that's saying, you know what? Well, it's probably a third camp of people just being way too risky. But the people that are successful, I feel like, are good at doing calculated risk. They assess things, they make decisions based upon an assessment, and then they pull the trigger, knowing that if they give it a shot, it will work out if you work hard and do all those other things. So it took me about a month to two months to make that decision. I left in February of 13, started with Gordon Dots and Gordon Rowitt in Chesterfield County, great firm, and had an amazing mentor, Randy Rowitt, just a phenomenal guy, phenomenal trial lawyer. And he really was a great first mentor that I had because he basically took me under his wing and he said, Hey, door's always open. We're gonna feed you a whole bunch of cases. You want to be a good trial lawyer, let's figure it out and let's go through that. And it was the best first two or three years of working there. I was there for I think three or four years. It was just fantastic. I felt like I could meet my goals and do the things I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

And you definitely, I mean, I think I could certainly tell, but you definitely fell in love with criminal defense.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

I did. Why? Because maybe subliminally, it was like uh my dad has been a criminal defense attorney for a long time. And I never really saw kind of the day-to-day of what he did growing up as a kid, you know, being the oldest of four kids. You have the natural tendency to sometimes follow in your you know your parents' footsteps. And so initially it was, I feel like kind of a connection to him in a way. Uh but more importantly than that, honestly, is the fact that I just loved uh the ability to talk with somebody who really needed you, who said, you know what, I didn't do it. Why would I take any deal? Which for all those people listening to this, that's a telltale sign. You shouldn't take any deals, you should try the case. Because if someone says, Hey, I got the sweetheart deal and I had this on these two homicide cases, why would I take any deal? I didn't do anything wrong. That's probably a good indicator that the person's probably innocent and you don't want to sell them down the river. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but I loved having the opportunity to really make a true impact on someone's life. And family members and uh clients at the end of the case saying, You saved my life is you know, it still gives me goosebumps thinking about that.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

You know, yeah. I've had I did a lot of criminal defense work in the army and I mean I still look back and I'm like, man, that was such a cool, cool job and experience. But it's for the very same reasons you mentioned. I mean you are the person standing between the government and the person who's now life and liberty are on the line, right? And it is stressful, but purposeful, it's hard, but also no, if I'm being honest, it's also a hell of a lot of fun. Yeah, there's something really cool about fighting the man, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:08

No doubt, no doubt about it. And sometimes even you have to sometimes look at your client, there's a balance to it, right? Because sometimes you have clients that are just real can you cuss on the podcast? Real assholes. And, you know, they have a bad attitude, and that's probably to some extent why they're in jail. And you have to say, look, dude, I don't know what the f your problem is, but you know, you want me to fight, I'll fight, you know. But this is what's going on. And sometimes I feel like, especially with court-appointed clients, they were convinced that you were working for the man behind the scenes because you know, you're getting paid by the government, they know. And so they just want to see some fight. And sometimes when you just throw it back right back in their face and you guys get in a little bit of an argument, I've had a number of times where clients like, now I know I can believe you. You're fighting back. I love it. That's what I want to see. Let's go out and do it. You want me to take a deal? Well, maybe we'll do that. And then it's worked out because they just wanted to get five years instead of nine, you know, something like that. So it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

It's funny you mentioned that. So Gray and I just spent the last four days in Texas at um, I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but it was time well spent. Highly recommend the program. This is an unsolicited, uh, I guess, plug for it, but it was the Lanier Settlement Academy, which is something I never thought I would ever do, right? And through that training, one of the many things that we learned was like, what does it mean when people say we'll get to know? It's people need some resistance when you're negotiating, where you're in comfort, they need some level of resistance for them to finally like take you seriously.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

And it's just funny how I mean I never really understood that, and I'm not, I don't think I'm doing a great job explaining that right now, but I imagine that like when you look at your client and say, No, like this is it, right? Like, this is my opinion, this is what I believe, and you are wrong. They believe you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can have an honest conversation, right? It's like it's it's funny, like, no, okay, all right. Candidly, it's good, and then there it almost like resets things, right? So, Matt, you'd still do criminal defense to some extent now, but very little, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Is that right? Yeah, just when retained, just when retained.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

And so, what I mean, my understanding is was really I mean, when you were doing criminal defense work, you weren't just doing defense work, you were also helping out because your partner at the time was doing collections. Correct. Well, before we get into that, sure, what is collections? And I mean, keep in mind, like, I'm not just asking that for the benefit of our listeners, I'm asking that because I've been a lawyer for 12 years now, and I still don't really know what collections are.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Basically, collections is when your clients have accounts receivable that they can't shore up, and instead of writing it off as bad debt and closing up their business or just having a really bad year, they will outsource it to a firm, sometimes a collection agency, like a call center. And what we do is we take all the accounts, we represent businesses that send us dozens or hundreds or even thousands accounts a year, and we try and get people on payment plans. I mean, I think a lot of people we work a lot of times with personal injury lawyers because you know, the orthopedic practices we represent, they have their clients who've got messed up in an accident, and you know, we have to deal with the personal injury lawyers. And ideally, you get people on payment plans and get them to pay and keep it out of courts, but a lot of times we go to court. But yeah, ultimately what collections is is you know, there's a lot of just uncollected money on our clients' books that they've tried to collect it. They can't. And obviously they don't want to have to use us if they don't have to, because they have to pay us, you know, if we collect something. So they try and collect it internally, sometimes months, a lot of times up to six months. Our biggest clients, they keep it in-house for about six months after services are rendered, and then they'll give it to us after that.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

So let me make sure I get this right. So let's say you're representing I don't know, you name it, some medical practice. Yep. Medical practice has bills that they've issued to people who they've provided services to. Those bills, though, have not been paid. They send the reminders, they're trying to get the bills paid and not getting paid. At some point, they say, Hey, Matt, we'll cut you a deal or whatever the agreement is. Here are the bills that have not been collected. We need you guys to go try and collect these and what is it, a percentage or something or some sort of arrangement?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

It's like a personal injury case. You get a certain it's a contingency fee arrangement.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Okay. Okay, and so basically they are outsourcing that collection, which I mean is a win-win, right? You get business, your firm gets business, and the client who's hired you, instead of just having to write that stuff off or continue to waste time and resources trying to track down those bills, while they're not gonna get the full bill paid, they're also not gonna get nothing. Correct, exactly right. That makes sense. Talk about in the context of if you don't mind, and we talked about this very briefly before we got on the podcast, the individual, I guess, person. So, for example, personal injury. A lot of times people don't really appreciate it until it touches them or they're in it. And what I mean by that, and then you can actually say the same thing for criminal work, and let me let me jump down that real quick very quickly. So I remember going through law school and all that. I was a prosecutor through and through. That's all I wanted to do. I was like, why would and then, and I'm not saying this is the correct framework, it's not what I'm about to share. It was not when I had this belief, I was naive. Uh, I still am. But, anyways, um, but at least this part of my has maintained that. Yeah. And so I remember thinking, well, on the criminal side, well, if you have nothing to hide, then why don't you just talk? Like, why remain silent? And I did not appreciate and understand the importance of the right to not self-incriminate under the Fifth Amendment. Like, I didn't appreciate the right to not have to testify until I was in it. And luckily, I was not accused of something. I was a criminal defense attorney having to deal with people in those very situations. And suddenly I understood, like, I learned very quickly how and why those rights are just so, so important. And so the same thing I've argued kind of applies just in a different way to our work, right? You don't really understand the importance of personal injury, right, until it touches you or a loved one. No doubt. And one of the things that people really don't get is that at the end of the day, there's only so much money on the table. And oftentimes it's insurance money. Right. If there's someone who's drunk behind the wheel and they crash into your loved one and kill them or hurt them badly, and the person who did that has the minimum insurance limits in Virginia, that's more often than not the only money that's available. No doubt about it. Even if the person your loved one, and I hate to use the kind of to talk so graphically and can't support themselves, right? Have medical bills that are, let's say, hundreds of thousands of dollars, can't work in the same capacity, right? Like at the end of the day, there's only so much money. And so oftentimes we get people who say, Well, all right, we'll just go take their house. Well, I mean, what if they don't have a house? But and and also, can you even do that, right? It's it's not easy to collect. Can you talk about like what that's like? How do you go after someone's assets, for example? One, I don't know. And it's something that certainly we frankly just don't do very often because of how difficult and and unsuccessful it is. But two, I just think it's important for people to know because it comes back to like, hey, if you're out there, well, yeah, you need insurance. You need to protect yourself.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

No doubt. And kind of to harp on that point, I mean, we're gonna talk about the importance of UIM. Oh my gosh. It's it's vital.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Well, I didn't know. So UIM underinsured motorist coverage or uninsured UM uninsured motors coverage. I didn't know what it was until I got into this work. And thankfully, Virginia, it's I don't know if it's mandated, but it's like it's defaulted. And it could be mandated, I just don't know. I should know the law on this. But if you buy liability insurance, you're getting the same amount in UIM. And that's right, when somebody who hits you and let's say flees, or somebody hits you and doesn't have insurance, and instead of there being no insurance to provide for you, your own insurance policy can kick in under the uninsured or underinsured coverage section. So yeah, it's vital.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

So vital. Everybody listening to this, definitely make sure you have plenty of it.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Oh, when I once I got into personal injury, I maxed out. I mean, I've got an umbrella policy, I've got it all. Yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day, it's I mean, is it money? Yeah, but it's actually not as much as you'd think. Especially like the umbrella policy. It's for not that much a month, you can give you and your family quite a bit of coverage.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

No doubt about it. Yeah, going back to what you were asking about, yeah. I mean, foreclosure on people's property is definitely a thing. I've never done it. I've been doing collections for 10 years. I basically went to my clients and piggybacked off my former uh partner's comments and just advised them look, you know, you don't want to be foreclosing on people's homes. It's just not a good look. And it's really not worth it if you're running after like a thousand dollar bill, which by and large, most to the average balance of any of our accounts is probably six or seven hundred dollars principal owed. So, you know, just the optics of it, you're doing your client a disservice if you find yourself in the news, you know, because you're foreclosing on someone's home to try and collect an $800 bill. So we don't do it. It's certainly something you can do. And if you have a large personal injury judgment, you know, where you have a client who's been victimized, let's say, and they've gotten nothing, and they've got hundreds of thousands of, if not millions of dollars of bills to pay, and you know, they're quad and the person's got a home. I mean, yeah, those are the situations where you look at a foreclosure, I would assume. But yeah, what we do primarily, I go to court all over the Commonwealth of Virginia. Our largest client has a practice that is all over Virginia. And so under the FDCPA, the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, you have to go to court either where the defendant resides or the contract is signed. So if you have a client who's based in Richmond but has clinics out in Blacksburg, and that's where they live and they sign the contract, well, then guess what? That's where you're gonna go to court. So I drive all over and it just I can't stress this enough. I think a lot of times, you know, collection attorneys get, you know, a bad rap, and it's it's like anything else, it's like doctors and Teachers or some good and there's some bad in the industry. If people think that I we love to sue people, you know, come into my world for a couple days when I have to get up at 4 a.m. to hit the road to go to Fairfax at 5 because I have to check my dockets when the courthouse opens at 8:30. I would much rather get all these people on payment plans, you know. So yeah, payment plans is a beautiful thing. We give people all kinds of options. When that all fails, we have to go to court. We have to take a judgment. If that doesn't result in anything, then you know, wage garnishments is a it's called a taking or an attachment, if you will. And then bank garnishments as well is another thing. That's the last ditch option. Yeah, I think by the time we get to the garnishment phase between my client and our efforts, I think there's been 15 to 17 contact attempts to try and get a response. You can't force people to pay, and if they don't, then that's why we have to use a court system.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Can you talk about garnishment? What is that and how does it work?

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Yeah. So garnishment is an attachment, it's an execution on your judgment that you've taken.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

And so judgment is you've gone to court, judge says, all right, this money's owed.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yep. You go to court, you demonstrate to a court of law that this debt is legitimate. You have to have all the forms properly signed. You have to have the soldier-sailor affidavit, which is basically confirmation that the person's not in the armed forces serving abroad. We have to skip trace accounts through LexusNexis to make sure we have done our best effort in suing the person and serving them at their address. Have to have an affidavit of debt from a client to say, yes, this is in fact owed. And then the court reviews all that and then grants a judgment stating that that amount is owed. And then subsequent to that, what I always tell people, because there's I probably get about 10 calls a week from people that own a home and it's a second investment and someone's not paying their bills. And, you know, I had a single mom call me last Friday because she had a home that she inherited, person hasn't paid, and she was asking for advice. And what I tell everybody is if you have a judgment, the best thing to always do is pay $15 and docket it because that essentially acts as a lien if the person ever goes to refinance or sell their property before closing. So, you know, your bank has an agreement with you, you pay a mortgage, and they have a lien on your property because if you don't pay, then they can they have rights to that property. Same with any judgments. If you docket those, if someone inherits money or goes to sell their property or refinances because interest rates are coming down, then that person will then have to settle up any debts before they're able to do that. And that's we get paid on a lot of judgments for that very reason. And so that's a great way to get an old bill pay. We get judgments from 2009, 2012 get paid in 2026 because years and years down the road, you know, they are coming into money and they're required to pay that. Wage garnishments, a lot of times, what the law says, the federal law says you can't withhold any more than 25% of someone's disposable earnings. And that's essentially, you know, you take FICA and Social Security, all that stuff comes out, and then that balance that remains is your disposable earnings, and you and the employer can't withhold any more than 25% of someone's disposable earnings, and then that gets sent to the court. Then we get that money and then apply it to the debt. And then bank garnishments is another way you can satisfy a debt.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Sounds like a lot of paperwork.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

It's a lot of paperwork. It's it's it's a very expense-driven practice. And I'm glad you brought that up because so much of what I've learned over the past three years and kind of my transition from a trial lawyer to a business lawyer, which is you know something I wanted to talk about. I've had to become very well versed in QuickBooks, very well versed in profit and loss statements and understanding where the money goes, because it can get out of hand very quick when you worry about printer, toner, lease for the copier, because you're cranking out paper left and right. Payroll. How many people are on payroll? You know, making sure payroll gets submitted timely, all that stuff. So yeah, it's uh it's it's paper intensive.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

You know what's weird? It what popped in my head when you're talking about just the volume was the service. Right. I mean, right? Like, I mean, you're having an service for those who aren't familiar with it, is you can't just like file the lawsuit and then things happen. You actually have to hire somebody, or you have the sheriff's office, or you hire uh more often than not, people will hire a company to officially serve the documents on that person, which is the best way to go. Yeah, because at least you can track it and you get the paperwork and all that stuff, and it's a little bit more seamless, but that's got to have a cost for every single one that you're doing, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, no doubt. Private process servers want to know what kind of volume we're gonna give them because they want your business and they'll try and give you as the best rate they can possibly give. It's not far off from the sheriff's department, but sheriff's office doesn't need to do a good job for you, you know, because they basically have to do it under the law. It's worth the investment for people that are a personal injury firm or any other business law firm that has recurring service needs, use a private process server because they have an incentive to do a good job for you. The technology now that they can use is fantastic. They take images, you know, almost like Amazon, right? They take screenshots of the actual posting on the door. So if anybody comes back to dispute it, you know, you can have an image essentially of the door. And I've had the motions to re-hear to set aside a judgment. We've had to use images to show uh that the person was in fact served, and what better evidence do you need than the person admitting under oath? Oh, yeah, that that is my door. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

Yeah. Well, I mean, wait till AI gets involved, and now we're exactly picking this stuff up. I had that conversation the other day. I'll ask you offline then, like who you guys use, because a process server who's got the ability to have the portal, to have the images, to be able to track things, I mean, worth their weight in gold. No doubt.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

No doubt. Because the sheriff's department a lot of times will just, you know, if they see a dog in the yard, and I'm not knocking the sheriff's department, I think that they just don't want to do it or they got other things they have to do, and they're getting paid a salary regardless of what how good of a job they do. And if they see a dog in the yard, they're not even gonna try. They're gonna say dog in the yard, not even attempt it. And so it's just uh it's a thing, you know?

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Yeah, that's cool. Let's talk about the transition then uh from being a traveler to a business lawyer. What was that like?

SPEAKER_02 30:03

It was tough, it still is tough because running a successful business takes a lot of work and it's essentially a full-time job and then some on top of also being a lawyer. So it's been a transition, it's been a great one. I've enjoyed it. It's basically when I made the move to Gordon Dotson, Gordon Rowitt, I made the kind of concerted decision to say, you know what? Now that I'm making this move, I'm in it to win it, and I've got to be cognizant of my business, my brand, and what are my goals. And that's a really important thing. Because in my experience, having daily goals, having monthly goals, having annual goals is something that I just have on the corner of my desk because I need to look at them and stay on top of them. And it kind of goes back to VMI of being regimented and being true to what your kind of creed, if that's if that's the proper word to use, is. And mine has always been if I'm going to succeed at something, I've got to map it out and I've got to make the step-by-step process. And so when I moved over there in 2013, my goal was over the next 10 years, have my real annual goal is to become a better trial lawyer. And at about five years, reassess and determine what my next 10 years was going to be. And that was to be a better business lawyer. And so I knew that from the age of, I guess, 29 or 30 to 38, 39, my focus was going to be trying cases, working to perfect that craft, and then make that transition. So, so yeah, I'm on year uh gosh, let's spend beginning of year four of running my own business of now 11 staff, I think, 10 staff. We collect a lot of money for our clients, and it's it's a full-time job. It's been great.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

And law school prepared you for running a business, right? Absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely not. I could sense that sarcasm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't need I didn't even need it because I already knew the answer. Yeah, we already know the answer, but uh well, there's even an argument. Love you, law school, but they don't even necessarily prepare you to be a charler either. But uh, yeah, I mean there is, and not to go down this rabbit hole, but there is very much, and I'm not saying it doesn't have a purpose, it does, but there is very much a difference between the study and the practice of law. And granted, it can be a larger gap depending on kind of what practice we're talking about. But one of the kind of the cool things and also the scary things I think about a law license is it's in many ways, it's also a license to be an entrepreneur. That's right. I mean, because there is a barrier to entry to get into this work, it's going to law school for the most part and passing the bar. And then once you do so, you have the ability to provide legal services for a fee. And that means what? You are a business. And I think one of the things certainly that I learned and our firm has now, I think, embraced is that you know what, like the old thing of like just do good work and everything will work out, is there truth to it? Of course. I mean, of course there's truth to it, but we have to recognize even the trial lawyers, right? We have to recognize that without the sound business principles, you can't do the effective trial work. And so our firm, while we are very big into trial work, love it, addicted to it, right? I think that's how we can get the best results for our clients, both those at trial and those who are gonna benefit from the reputation that we have, who end up not having to go to trial and they settle their claim. At the end of the day, if we don't have the right business, we're not gonna be able to do it because it's law trial work is just a service.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

And it's it's only gonna become more important that that be part of your repertoire as a lawyer. Because if you're now competing not just with Sharif Gray or other lawyers out there, but also AI, you better have your brand focused on and developed because there's just another competitor out there.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

And I'd argue, and I've heard this before, I forgot where I heard it from, but like our competitors aren't just the people down the street who also have a law license. From the consumer's perspective, the client's perspective, right? We're used to I need to get somewhere, Uber, the click, right? And like bam, oh, I need to order something, Amazon. It's there that afternoon now, sometimes, right? Like that's what our expectations are now. I mean, that's what my expectation is, right? If I need something, chances are I can get it right within the next 24 hours. No doubt about it. And so I think many, especially people in in my generation, certainly not yours, doctor. I had to put that one in there. Yeah, you keep it. Even though we're basically the same age. But um, yikes. I'm proud of myself for that one. That was that was a that was a good plug. I like that. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Very subtly done.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Thank you. But, anyways, that that's our expectation. And so if I am a lawyer, I need to not only know how to do the legal stuff and do a good job for the client within the bounds of the law and and and complying with everything, right? But I also need to make sure that I've got a business that supports that that work and then also is able to satisfy and hopefully exceed the expectations of the client, which is the Amazons, the Ubers, and all that stuff. Knowing that your clients expect this kind of level of efficiency, this level of transparency, right, with online systems. What's that been like for you as a business owner? And maybe actually what might even be more valuable is what has that transition been like to, hey, you got the client in front of you in the case file, and that's all you really got to worry about, to now having to worry about providing not just that service, but also making sure you have the infrastructure and foundation that your clients frankly expect.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah. Well, I fortunately I'm I have not seen a big effect on my business as it relates to my clients' needs or client interest with the growing age of AI, mostly because most of the clients that we have are of an older generation. The decision makers I talk to for all my clients are a lot of times older than myself that are in their 50s, 60s, sometimes 70s. They know who I am, they know what they want. We've kind of catered to their needs. And, you know, AI or not, they know that we have a reputation and we do a great job. And I think really at the end of the day, they're of a mindset that AI doesn't solve everything. I don't know if I want to believe what I'm reading online about AI and how quick things are and everything. I'd rather hear it from Matt or from the people who have this history of representing us and being trustworthy and that sort of thing. So it hasn't really affected me on the collections front from that standpoint with communications with clients and their needs. But I can see how it's going to be a thing for sure when you're dealing with a lot of clients because you're representing individuals like personal injury or criminal defense, or you're a prosecutor and you got victims that have needs. And, you know, do I really have to come in and meet with you, prosecutor, about this trial that's coming up? Can we do a virtual or something? You know, it's got to be like this, instantaneous, please, you know. But for me, it's not been much of an impact yet.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

Have you had a chance to like implement AI at all in your firm? Or and I I say that because in the PI space it's big. Yeah. It's I mean, it's we are, I mean, our firm, we have multiple AI tools that we use, and it's it's allowing us to maybe get rid of some of the more mundane tasks, right? The the days of us flipping through a thousand pages of medical records are done, they're over and they'll never return. Right. And they should never return.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah, no, that's what's so great about AI is that so much of what it offers will be good. And the question is, what will it be that will be bad? And time will tell. But but yeah, we use AI, you know, SEO search engine optimization. So for marketing purposes, we use AI, and that's been a big benefit. Traffic on Google has helped tremendously, uh, and that's AI driven. And then we just partnered with a company recently that helped us with an AI initiative to just read large bits of data that we get from clients that send us information that it took a lot longer to write it and develop the kind of code, but thankfully it's come to a close. We were hoping to have it finished by September of last year, but we just we just finished wrapping it up just because we wanted to make sure it was accurate. And so we found some issues and had to go back and correct it and clean it up. And but now it's it's been great. We just started using it a couple weeks ago and it's been going well.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

So, Matt, BMI, law school, work in commercial litigation, decide, you know what, it's time for me to take a calculated risk, go become the trial lawyer, enjoy it, have success, transition into the business world. If you could go back in time and like give yourself advice, and frankly, what I'm really hoping we can do is like for those young lawyers out there who are trying to find their way, right? Like, what would you want to tell them? What are the things that you'd want you? I mean, you've clearly you've done well, you've learned lessons, you've benefited from mentorship, you've obviously adjusted and continued to grow. What are some things you could have told yourself that would have made you just get it that much faster?

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah, I I'd probably say well, I think just generally with regard to young lawyers, I think it's important to realize that you don't always have it right. You know, keep an open ear to people that are more experienced than you, that know their way. Doesn't mean you do exactly what they tell you to do, but just listen more than talk. That's a problem of us lawyers. We talk too much, we don't listen as much. And I think that's a very important thing to know. Obviously, develop your brand. Calculated risk we talked about. Don't be risk adverse. There are so many people in this world, not just in the legal field, that just won't take a chance because they're just afraid. It's easier to just be status quo, you know, it's just human nature. But if you know that you'll put in the time and the effort, if you take a risk, whether it's big or small, it'll work out. And you'll be happy you did it because you did it. It wasn't just something handed over to you. You had to really fight and get through it. Some again, we go back to VMI. There's just so many things that we learn at VMI about hard work and just taking the path less traveled. You know, don't do ordinary.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Is that so the phrase? I think it's I'll be there tomorrow, actually, for Legacy Day. Great. Taking my five-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

So my I think my dad has his 55th. He was graduated in 71. I think he has his 55th reunion this weekend. So you might see him.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Oh wow. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. We hear the like, you know, find your passion, bet on yourself, all that. It's not that easy though. No. Right. And it's, I think, something that I mean, I've had my ups and downs, and I I'm sure I will continue, right? Just different types of problems that we'll that we'll I'll deal with. But what I have learned is like things are iterative. We may have an idea in our head, okay, well, we're gonna take this risk and we're gonna do that. And at that time that we make that decision, I think it's important for us to have the humility to know, you know, like and we don't even know what could come next. Right. I mean, right? Because if I could go back in time to I graduated law school in 2014, and I walk back and said, Hey Sharif, like 12 years from now, you're gonna be a personal injury traveler, you're gonna live in Richmond, Virginia, you're gonna have a wife, you're gonna have two kids, and you're gonna enjoy it, right? And that's what you're gonna do. And I would have laughed at yeah, like true, like just laughed, right? Right? Like, I mean, just I mean, even I remember being in Richmond for an event with my wife, and we were leaving. This was before I think I was still in the army or on the way out of the army, and I remember we looked at each other as we were leaving, and I'm like, you know, could we ever live here? Like, is this the place where we'd ever want to live? And we're like, nah, no, not really. And then what's the look at the irony, right? Now, like we're in Richmond of a podcast that was once called RVA Travelers. So it's it's really crazy.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

And just but but that's the thing, that's that's what you need to do. And in Diary of a CEO, it's a great podcast.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Not as good as ours, but yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

It's close, close second. But what's so cool about it, they had an interview with a guy who said, look, at the end of the day, if you set a goal to say, I'm gonna be this specifically, then you're gonna spend all your life having tunnel vision solely focused on hitting that one goal, that you're never gonna consider different options. And you're just gonna have that tunnel vision. If you kind of know what your core values are and you keep an open mind and you have certain things you strive for, your path will find its way. And so that's kind of what you've done in the sense that you didn't think you'd ever be not a chance. And that's the way it is.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

I thought I would get inflections five, federal prosecutor that I'm joking about six foot five thing, but I'm still you are. I thought you were six foot five. Um that's the other way around, actually, five's six. But my wife claims I've gotten actually, and Laura, our paralegal supervisor, she's promoted not long ago, claims I've gotten shorter, actually. So, anyways, um, in fact, like I am, well, you saw this as we were walking around the office before the episode. Our team did this whole thing where they're like assigning characteristics, and I think my characteristics, it was during lunch this week, Gray and I are out of town, and my characteristics were what? It was overly ambitious, which I took a little offense to. I was like, Yeah, do you use the word overly? Like, I'm good with ambitious. That's a that's a key part of it, yeah. Right? And then it was performative, which I was like, huh? What does that mean? I don't know. Okay. I'm still trying to figure that out. Flamboyant, which I was like, okay, all right. And then unhinged. Ooh. So I know I kind of like the unhinged though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

I'm sure some of your clients like the unhinged. Yeah, it's a little bit unhinged for a good result.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

That's right. I mean, and there's some element of and coming full circle to trial work, right? I mean, it it takes sometimes some real risk and some real vulnerability to walk into that courtroom and to say, you know what, the other side is wrong and we're right for these reasons, be it in the work that we do now, or especially in the criminal world, which you had to deal with, to go and say the government, the state of Virginia is wrong. And they are trying to put this person in jail. Ugh, yikes. Talk about ballsy, but really, really, really important work. Matt, I found it this has been fun, man. Yeah. I've learned a little bit about collections, which is good. I'll be candid with you. I still don't know what truly understand what collections are, but I'll get there one day, I think. Yeah. So as long as I avoid the letter from the law firm, I think I'll be good to go.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

You see Gilliam and McCool on Letterhead in your, you know, in an envelope, just run for the hills. That's right. You should be scared.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

You should that should be a commercial for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

You know what's so funny about commercials is that collections is not really a commercial driven kind of practice. You have to be a personal injury. But now I'm working for the man now. I used to work for the people. Right. But now I work for the man, and no one wants to hear from the man on commercials.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

So let's let's end with this then. If you could share one or two things about collections that people just don't know or don't appreciate, right? What would you want them to know for the average person?

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah. Most people that don't pay have money. What? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

So they have the money to be able to pay.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Oh yeah, definitely. Well that's crazy. The people that call us more often than not or religiously are people that don't have money that just feel like they have an obligation to pay, that want to pay. And we do what we we do as best we can to help them along their way and get them on a payment plan. So yeah, there's somebody that lives uh generally whereabouts you live. There's a family that lives just a few blocks from my house. We've sent no fewer than 10 letters. They've been to our office. Husband and wife both had bills. Kids go to private school, go to St. Christopher's. Not a cheap uh ticket to not a cheap ticket. Um, you know, I've I've got people that approach me all the time that say, Oh, yeah, I live in Moreland Farms and my next door neighbor has a just finished building a $3.5 million house, and they use my address to have their mail sent to them. So somehow this is the neighbor coming to me saying, Yeah, you know, let's make up the name. Joe Smith has a $3.5 million house. Joe Smith had these letters from all these companies that Joe owes money to, and Joe's address is my address. And so how do they have my address? It's never a convenient time to pay a bill, but it is amazing to see that people that have money they don't pay. That's the first thing. The second thing is, is like I was saying earlier, you know, by the time we get the account, the debt has been probably six to eight months old at least, sometimes more than a year or two. There have been 16 to 17, I think, contacts with the person before we get to a garnishment phase. And my clients desperately want people to get on payment plans because that means they don't have to pay me to go get it. And so they offer like interest-free payment plans. And like the terms are just amazing. And despite all that, they can't get people to pay. So then it comes to us, and you know, we're the bad guy because we take people to court and all that kind of stuff. So it's just it's it's wild. But yeah, no, I I definitely acknowledge that there are people. Well, the other thing I'll say too, on that last point, is that people sometimes think, you know, collection lawyers, oh, we go after like, you know, people, we put people on the streets. Even if I was that cold-hearted of a bastard, why would I spend my time going after somebody who I know has no money? That doesn't make any sense. Like from a business standpoint, that's just doesn't make any sense. We don't do that. But yeah, it's been a transition for me because there have been a lot of people that have been supportive of me when I was a criminal defense attorney because I was doing this, you know, noble work and certainly representing criminals. There's people that are like, how can you do it? But as a collections attorney, the only people that love me are my clients that say, hey, we were able to give bonuses to our staff this year because of the money you brought in. Like we can now buy state-of-the-art surgical operative devices now because of all this money you brought in. Everybody else doesn't like us, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yeah. That's wild. Well, I'm really glad I asked that question. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you did. We got a little bit behind the curtain on collections. Yeah. So kind of happy to do it. There's a little bit of underdog in there, I think. A little bit. A little bit. That's okay. I've I've been an underdog once or twice before. That's right. Well, Matt, this has been fun. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Thanks for listening to Courtroom Stories and Tactics by RVA Trial Lawyers, hosted by Sharif Gray and Nial Abuzaki. Please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or any major podcast platform. Together, we're building a tribe of trial lawyers to remind the world what human life is truly worth. One verdict at a time.